Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Discuss Christopher Ward watches

Do you prefer the logo placement

Love 9 o'clock - well done CW
22
16%
Ambivalent - 9, 12 or any other o'clock doesn't bother me
41
29%
Would prefer not 9 o'clock, but everything else is so good I'll buy despite it
33
23%
Hate 9 o'clock - won't buy a leftyt-logo CW
45
32%
 
Total votes: 141

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by hughesyn »

Looks like more than half would either prefer the logo not at 9 or hate the logo at 9.

Something to think about for CW.

Stick to their artistic vision, despite alienating potential customers, or change to a more conservative design?

I love the new designs and might invest despite the bizarre logo placemnt. But it would be a shame if CW are missing out on a load of sales.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by Mikkei4 »

Generally anybody with a complaint, gripe or criticism is more likely to respond or write a complaint than anybody that could have something good to say about a purchase, some sort of service or have experienced good service from a member of staff. Is this what's happening on this poll?

Let's put a different interpretation of the result so far - one-third of (IIRC) 2% of the CW customer base, i.e. this Forum, say they hate the logo at 9 and won't buy a lefty CW.

Don't get me wrong I would love CW to return the name brand to a more conventional location as I've grown to dislike this positioning more and more as I see it on watches (and IMO ruin watches) that I'd be very tempted to buy otherwise BUT will one-third of 2% sway CW's brand strategy? Mmmm, give me a second to think about that - No, of course not especially if the owners believe it's caused greater sales figures and because they must have paid a mass of money for somebody to come up with the extra-ordinary idea of making the new logo the same as the brand name (I wish I could think like that, suggest it and get it accepted) and because face would be lost by changing it again.

There have been 2 great points made in prior posts on this thread - firstly that the horse has bolted, the stable door is off it's hinges etc etc and secondly they should never have made the brand name Christopher Ward in the first place. A "made-up" brand name of 1 word of no more than 7 letters would have been great. As Johnny Cash once sang "If you ever have a son then call him Bob, George, anything but Sue" (that's unlikely to be the actual lyrics in his song but it's late and I can't be bothered to check the real lyrics but hopefully you'll catch the drift of what I'm trying to say) - Should have made it anything but a 2 line left-justified long name/short name.

Great thread, great topic, great poll. Shame it won't change anything.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by H0rati0 »

^^^^^
Fair point wrt size of the forum and its opinions, but IIRC the prompt for this poll was the Urban Gentry review of the C65GMT which had a cascade of branding negative comments posted, ostensibly by a cross section of readers. No smoke without fire, methinks.

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by Mikkei4 »

H0rati0 wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 am ^^^^^
Fair point wrt size of the forum and its opinions, but IIRC the prompt for this poll was the Urban Gentry review of the C65GMT which had a cascade of branding negative comments posted, ostensibly by a cross section of readers. No smoke without fire, methinks.

nik
yes good point as I had forgotten the initial article and comments that prompted the poll.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by MarkingTime »

I'm ambivalent about the position, although traditionally, a logo is at 12 O'clock.

What is more important, in my opinion, is consistency in branding for recognition and perception of quality.

Too many logo and branding changes can make a company look unsure about its identity and will affect the above.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by FloridaPhil »

Sorry for this ultra long post but this is a topic to which I've given probably too much consideration. Reader's Digest version: I dislike the 9 o'clock positioning intensely due to the way it totally unbalances the dial and I resist buying any CW watch with the placement.


Although it's been done to death here and on the Facebook groups, the subject is going to continue to come up over and over ad nauseum regardless of how many eye rolls it generates. Just take a look at the comments on almost any review of a CW watch and probably a third or more of them are derogatory remarks against the logo/placement. That simply CANNOT be good business for CW, regardless of how many watches they think they have sold due to the success of the logo. If even many 'loyal fans' here on this dedicated forum are panning it, how does that make any sense?

The following is my opinion and is pure conjecture on my part since I have no metrics to support anything I say but it makes sense to me. Make of it what you will:

I have heard both Christopher Ward and Mike France say that sales 'exploded' when logo v3 was introduced and they hang the continued use of the device at 9 on that claim. I think that's possibly/probably a case of misplaced cause and effect. If I recall correctly, logo v3 was first test-marketed on the C5 Malvern Slimline range - both the round and square versions - minimalist watches that, out of the entire CW range at the time, would surely be the ideal candidates for the minimalist font and arguably the logo placement at 9 o'clock. For these particular watches I would agree that it was an improvement on the 'faux-vintage' (as described by Mike France) v2 ChrWard logo. So, the end result was hipster style watches (not at all meant to be derogatory) married with a hipster-appealing logo and placement, and even though I didn't personally care for them, I can see why they were well-received by the target demographic.

Remember also that v3 was introduced just as CW's name and reputation had really started to soar. I would argue that sales would have 'exploded' regardless of the introduction of the new logo and I'm of the opinion that sales would have increased beyond the improved numbers claimed by CW. Again, refer to the same unending negative comments about the logo all over the internet and statements that many love the watch and would buy one if it wasn't for the odd (polite version) logo placement.

Back to the original question which specifically asked about the location rather than the logo wordmark. One of the reasons given for the new font was the clarity and ease of scalability and I think it achieves both of those objectives so I have no real objection to the wordmark - but I do detest the 9 o'clock positioning with a passion. To me, it is an unnecessary affectation for the sake of being different and for the life of me I do not understand why CW stubbornly continues to run with it in the face of such obvious resistance, other than they still believe the erroneous cause and effect correlation I mentioned earlier. It would not be a climb-down IMO to keep the wordmark as-is but center-justify it at 12. It would still say contemporary without yelling 'weird'. It would also avoid yet another drastic change of identity. Job done.

Myself, I do have 3 watches with the new logo.

One doesn't count - my Trident Chrono Auto - because the logo is at 3 and with the subdials it's the only place it fits so it looks just fine.

Another is my Trident Titanium v1, the stealth dial. When I first got it, I was ambivalent about it and it took me about 45 days to decide to keep it. The 9 o'clock position and the resulting void at 12 is not so irritating because the whole face is something of a dark void. LOL

The third is a watch I bought in October because I felt I needed to experience an 'obvious' 9 o'clock logo since many on the CW Enthusiasts FB page couldn't understand why I objected to it so strongly. I decided that I wasn't qualified to discuss the issue further until I actually held the watch in my hand so ordered both a blue and a black C65 Trident Diver. Right out of the box, the logo positioning was everything I thought it would be. I hated it. But, in the interest of giving them a fair hearing, I decided to keep both watches for the majority of the 60 day return period. Over the following 7 weeks, my negative opinion lessened slightly but the lack of dial symmetry still bothered me.

An unexpected realisation, given my positive comments about the font above, was that the modern san-serif font was incongruous with the design of the vintage-inspired watch much in the same way that the v2 faux-vintage logo didn't suit the contemporary watches. I described it as topping my apple pie with onion gravy. I believe that the jarring would be lessened dramatically if the wordmark was at 12 (see Dan Henry watches that use a simple name line as their device or several of the CW mock-ups produced and uploaded here by Nordwulf).

At the end of the return period, it was a close call as to whether I kept either watch but I did keep the black, reasoning that I could flip it if it didn't continue to grow on me. Since then (I'm 3.5 months into owning this watch) I've become more accustomed to it I'd say, but still not accepting of it. It continues to bother me and I'll probably sell it on but I'm not quite there yet. Doubtless CW would argue that the C65 Diver has won all kinds of awards so clearly there isn't a problem but I'd not be convinced - I'm convinced that sales would have been much higher with a traditional logo placement but obviously there's no way to actually know.

The day-date faces appear to be more balanced to my eyes and are more acceptable. The C65 bronze SH21 small seconds limited edition is also a watch I would be happy to own since the logo is balanced on the other side of the dial with the limited edition wording.

The twin-flag device is both clever and interesting but I don't think it can replace the logo - it's too you've got-to-know-what-it-is before you appreciate it.

I did briefly own a C8 Power Reserve and returned it because of a fault (and didn't reorder only because I found it to be a little too big for me). The logo at 12 works so well (if a little large imo), but otherwise, who could really object to it? I bet CW would sell a lot more watches and it makes me sad that I will be very selective as to which CW watches I now buy, regardless of all the other wonderful innovations and detailing that CW has and will introduce. I've moved on to other brands now and for as long as the 9 o'clock logo persists. It's a real shame.



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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by 0uatiOW »

^Well said Phil. I agree with you that the sales explosion coincided with the release of some really first class watches - the Trident Bronze was a wowser, the C65 Diver, the continued production of their best-selling C60 Trident, the remarkable SH21 and so the list goes on. New logo, sales go through the roof. Must be the logo then. No. It’s the watch designs, the dials, the cases, the buzz. No-review I saw ever enthused about a left aligned non-serif wordmark at 9, they pointed out the retro-vibe of the C65 Diver, the magnificence of a British in-house movement with a 5 day power reserve, the reserved assertiveness of the C60 and the competitive price point.

No doubt, with the release of the C65 Automatic, a stunning piece, although floating on homage lake, as another member put it, sales will increase further. Must be the logo. The much anticipated C60 MK3, serving up incremental improvements to the CW cash cow, and at long last promising to occupy the often requested 40mm sweet spot of many average-sized customers, myself included, will be a huge and roaring success. How can it not be? Must be the logo.

Around the same time, the increasing “internetisation” of the luxury watch industry put light on the likes of CW, as punters became more comfortable with buying these items online (60/60 is revolutionary in that respect). Boom, more sales. Must be the new logo. No, no, no, no, no, it is not.

What strikes me about this poll, is the vehemence of the feeling against the 9OC placement. A third of respondents hate, yes hate the position. That’s a strong word for something as benign as where a logo appears. It’s not even the logo itself (that’s been done to death), it’s just where it’s located. That surprised me. Another 20% don’t like the logo at 9 - that’s 50% against the location. A further 30% don’t care. They’re not saying they like it there, they’re saying “meh”. 15% say they love it. Assuming, for want of any data to the contrary, that the members of this forum represent the views of the general public, 15% isn’t a resounding sign of support, and I find it difficult to believe the 15% being behind the booming sales growth, rather it’s the 50% who either don’t care or buy despite the logo position who are driving that growth.

It would be interesting to see how the numbers stack up with the feelings toward the logo itself - I’ve certainly read some comments from people who really like it, and I wonder which of the two, logo design or logo placement, provokes the biggest reaction, positive or negative.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by baldrick »

Voted "hate", but that's probably extreme for a watch!

It does look unbalanced to my eye (exceptions are where the 9 o'clock makes sense or is necessary, rather than an affectation - e.g. the C600 Chrono Pro).

It's compounded by the font, which is crap and cheap.

As a result, I've yet to see a new logo watch that I would buy. Shame.

Edit to add: but for the logo, I probably would have bought another CW, which is probably as important a metric. For example, I would have a c65 LE on my wrist but for the logo.

They've tried to balance the logo with additional (superflous) text at 3, but it doesn't really work (Not least because of the different font size). It also seems to me that when you have to add additional text / features to counterbalance and mitigate a purely aesthetic affectation, that pretty much confirms the initial design is, erm, "poor".

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by H0rati0 »

Phil and 0uatiOW have covered it. I too believe sales are stronger because of the innovative watches not the branding - that is hindering.

I am an example of a new customer coming into the fold after the new branding. What brought me to the brand was SH21, clean innovative design and complications at great value for money prices.

My first CW purchased last year when I finally paid attention to CW was a C8PR - branding is fine.

My next two were old logo versions, before I really started to question the new branding - until then I was just vaguely uncomfortable with it. I look back now and think that was not a coincidence, as though I admire the C65 I am not sure I will take the plunge. However, I will probably add a C1 moonphase at some point - doesn't look too bad as the logo cannot go at 12, but I am thoroughly unconvinced of the left alignment.

I do not hold it against CW. They are pushing the envelope and doing so much stuff right - I think it was good to try an innovative approach to branding and it is not all bad, the twin flags can serve.

But it ain't working. Time to admit that not all inventions catch on.

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by Thegreyman »

You guys might be right, the logo is holding back sales, but then again maybe it isn't and we'll probably never know.

To turn the stats around, 67% of the respondents to the poll would buy a new CW regardless of the logo. I'm in the camp that I would probably prefer it not to be at 9 o'clock, mainly as I like things generally to be symmetrical, however with a date window at three I find things to be satisfactorily balanced and particularly with the twin flag logo filling the space at 12, such as on the new C65 Trident Auto, then the left placement becomes even less of an issue.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS »


Thegreyman wrote:You guys might be right, the logo is holding back sales, but then again maybe it isn't and we'll probably never know.

To turn the stats around, 67% of the respondents to the poll would buy a new CW regardless of the logo. I'm in the camp that I would probably prefer it not to be at 9 o'clock, mainly as I like things generally to be symmetrical, however with a date window at three I find things to be satisfactorily balanced and particularly with the twin flag logo filling the space at 12, such as on the new C65 Trident Auto, then the left placement becomes even less of an issue.
To quote Meat Loaf:-

"You took the words right out of my mouth" (with the exception of the position of the logo being an 'I don't mind', rather than ambivalence which implies begrudging acceptance).

If I had a product that appealed to 2/3 of people who knew about it, I would be a happy guy (pardon the pun).

Hell, if a politician had a 67% approval rating they would be a god!!

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by FloridaPhil »

Only it isn't a 67% approval rating, is it? Interesting that you would choose to compare CW branding to what is historically the lowest rated 'profession' in the world. Let's aim a bit higher. Would I be keen to fly with an airline with a 67% safety record or be operated on by a surgeon that was 67% successful with his procedures? Nah.

If the logo issue is as innocuous as it's supporters say, then why not move it to a more universally acceptable position. That would get many of the detractors back on board and presumably those who don't care where it is would still be happy. Suddenly it's a 90%+ support level.

Or is that too simplistic?
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by srs1286 »

^^ I personally think you’re both being a little dramatic with your comparisons of politicians and those that you trust your life with. Let’s take it down a notch and compare it to other products. For instance would you overlook items on amazon with less than 67% 4 and 5 star reviews? Even that analogy may not be completely accurate because the logo is only a single aspect so while 33% flat out don’t like the logo / placement of logo, that may only be weighted to 20% of the product. The remaining 80% is actual product quality and value. Look at it that way and all of the sudden your disaproval of the entire product drops to single digits.
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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by smegwina »

srs1286 wrote:^^ I personally think you’re both being a little dramatic with your comparisons of politicians and those that you trust your life with. Let’s take it down a notch and compare it to other products. For instance would you overlook items on amazon with less than 67% positive reviews? Even that analogy doesn’t quite work because the logo is only a single aspect so while 33% flat out don’t like the logo / placement of logo, that may only be weighted to 20% of the product. The remaining 80% is actual product quality and value. Look at it that way and all of the sudden your disaproval of the entire product drops to just 6.6%.
True, but that 6.6% may stop you buying the product!

As for me, not really fussed either way. To be honest, I didn't like the piccies, but on a watch on the wrist, it is not really noticeable!

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Re: Logo at 9 o'clock poll

Post by FloridaPhil »

No, not true Scott. The poll clearly shows that 34% of respondents won't buy the watch because of the logo.

As for being overly dramatic, it's a debate technique designed to contrast viewpoints and highlight differences. Relax, nobody is seriously comparing watches to brain surgery. 😊
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