Miyota movement accuracy query

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Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by strapline » Wed May 15, 2019 9:50 am

Hi there,

I wonder if anyone on this forum has an auto watch ran by a Miyota movement? Last year I bought a watch that was powered by a Miyota 9130, which I was assured was comparable to a ETA 2824 (elabore). I very much liked the watch, but the engine was the most important consideration for me. I was hoping to get something that wouldn't be too far away from COSC certification in terms of daily accuracy - the watch was costing £900.

Miyota list the movement as a premium movement on their own site. I was also told that, in terms of cost, they were very similar to the ETA 2824, they were just more readily available. Presently, my watch runs at a 24hr average of around -15s. I am a little disappointed by this figure, and I really didn't think it unreasonable to expect a tolerance in single figures for a watch at this price point.

I would be pleased to hear of other members experience with this movement or Miyota movements in general. :D
I'm a tool watch kinda guy; bezels and pushers for me. I used to dive, I used to climb mountains. I spend too much time looking at watches.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:17 am

The Miyota 9130 is indeed a premium movement, more expensive and feature rich than the ETA2824.

In Elabore grade an ETA2824 is specified on average at ±7 seconds per day so I think your Miyota is not so far away. Also to compare, CW specify ±20 seconds per day for any of their models using Sellita or ETA except COSC limited editions.

You could pay a decent watchmaker to spend some time regulating, but does it really matter that much? I would say your watch is running fine, and in any case given a bit of running will hopefully settle down to do better.

Best of luck
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS » Wed May 15, 2019 10:57 am

Magnetized?

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by strapline » Wed May 15, 2019 2:48 pm

H0rati0 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:17 am
The Miyota 9130 is indeed a premium movement, more expensive and feature rich than the ETA2824
Bahnstormer_vRS wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:57 am
Magnetized?

Guy

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Thanks for the replies. Like I said, I'm very pleased with the watch, just wanted a little reassurance where the tolerance was concerned. It certainly isn't magnetised, I've checked it a couple of times with my Silva compass. I guess if I want tighter, guaranteed tolerances I've got to look at a COSC watch.
I'm a tool watch kinda guy; bezels and pushers for me. I used to dive, I used to climb mountains. I spend too much time looking at watches.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Wed May 15, 2019 3:53 pm

strapline wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:48 pm

I guess if I want tighter, guaranteed tolerances I've got to look at a COSC watch.
Correct. You can get lucky (or regulate) with an ordinary ETA or Miyota etc, but if you want an out of the box guarantee COSC or similar is the way to go - at the premium of course!

One thought though, I have definitely noticed that wearing a watch steadily (after a running in period of say a couple of weeks) encourages it to run at its optimum - mixing and matching (even kept on a winder) not so much. I have a Fortis (ETA 2895) that runs a second or so fast per day when it's worn, on the winder it gains noticeably more, though I have never troubled to measure it.

At least you are pleased with the watch, what is it may I ask?
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by richtel » Wed May 15, 2019 9:39 pm

Miyota's website lists accuracy at -10 to +30 so if it's regulated really well, the daily variation can fall within that variation and be within tolerance as far as the manufacturer is concerned. It also specifies a positional variation of up to 40 seconds per day. It's also worth noting that the specification will be with the watch well wound.

If the daily variation of your watch measured over a few days of wear falls within that varience but outside the absolute rate then it could conceivably be regulated better, but you have to determine whether you're bothered by it enough to go to the effort of getting it regulated. You have to ask yourself what difference will it actually make to your use and enjoyment of the watch.
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by keepitsimple » Wed May 15, 2019 11:35 pm

Your watch may not be accurate, but it may be precise (there is a difference !)

If it performs to a similar level in all postions, then it is precise, and can be made accurate just by a fairly simple regulation.

The quickest way to check this is to use a timing machine - the long way is to do a 24hr test in each position and record the results. If the differences from perfectly accurate in different positions are all fairly close (even the best watches are allowed quite a wide variation - COSC allows up to 10 seconds per day difference between the fastest and slowest positions and many non-chronometer but good movements, are substantially more.)

Provided the delta (greatest difference between fastest and slowest) isn't too large, a competent watchmaker can regulate it to your normal wearing pattern.

I've got 3 Miyota 9015 watches (basically same as the 9130 but without the power reseve indicator), so not a statistically valid sample, but still....

The best has a maximum variation of 8 seconds, the other 2 are 10 seconds each

Regulated (by me, and I aint no watchmaker !) 1 of them is -2.5 per day on the wrist, another is generally spot on 0, and the third is about +10, but I haven't regulated that one yet.

When you're down to these very fine differences in rate, you have to expect they will not be perfectly consistent day in and out - not even the best mechanical watches are.

I have ETA movements that achieve broadly the same - some better, some not so good, and one superb - in fact the most consistently accurate watch I have including rolex and omega chronometers. You can't really call that a fluke - it's what manufacturers try to achieve, but it is unusual for a run of the mill movement that hasn't had any special attention.

There is an element of "luck of the draw" in non-certified movements, and even ETA I think only specify that something like 90% of their movements will meet their declared standards.

Watches like Omega (the chronometer movements anyway, not all of them) Rolex and other certified watches should be top end; but that's part of what you pay for. Omega and Rolex aren't the only ones, but just as an example.

Hope this helps.

PS - earlier comments about movement prices are unreliable - the eta 2824 movement - even basic version - is significantly more expensive than a Miyota 9130; in fact it's arguable that the Miyotas aren't worth getting serviced, as a replacement would normally be more economical. I'll be very happy to be proved wrong with available and genuinely "for sale" prices being published, but a quick check shows Miyotas at about $130 from a reliable supplier (and the Miyota 9015 which is more directly comparable in functions to the eta 2824, for about $100 or less) - best price I found for an eta 2824 - basic not elabore - is at least twice as much.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:51 am

keepitsimple wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:35 pm

PS - earlier comments about movement prices are unreliable - the eta 2824 movement - even basic version - is significantly more expensive than a Miyota 9130; in fact it's arguable that the Miyotas aren't worth getting serviced, as a replacement would normally be more economical. I'll be very happy to be proved wrong with available and genuinely "for sale" prices being published, but a quick check shows Miyotas at about $130 from a reliable supplier (and the Miyota 9015 which is more directly comparable in functions to the eta 2824, for about $100 or less) - best price I found for an eta 2824 - basic not elabore - is at least twice as much.
Cousins UK quick check:

Miyota 9130 £125
ETA 2824.2 £121.95

YMMV of course!

I fully agree that the Miyota 9130 is not directly comparable to the ETA 2824 (nor is the spec as tight) but that was the original proposition.
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by strapline » Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 pm

Wow... Thanks for all the replies guys. You all seem to take this watch stuff very seriously. I had a feeling that this forum would be a hotbed for all things watch related. Regarding accuracy, there are 86,400 seconds every day. If I should be 12-15 astray of nuclear time, it's not the end of the world (nuclear time/end of world) bad analogy, me thinks. With regard to standard of movement and cost, I was informed that is was slightly more expensive than an Eta 2824.2, but of a very comparable quality. Given the cost of the watch, I just didn't want to feel that it was being powered by a cheap throw away movement. I have visited the Miyota site, and that has only served to give me confidence. Thanks again for your replies.
I'm a tool watch kinda guy; bezels and pushers for me. I used to dive, I used to climb mountains. I spend too much time looking at watches.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:44 pm

strapline wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 pm
Wow... Thanks for all the replies guys. You all seem to take this watch stuff very seriously. I had a feeling that this forum would be a hotbed for all things watch related. Regarding accuracy, there are 86,400 seconds every day. If I should be 12-15 astray of nuclear time, it's not the end of the world (nuclear time/end of world) bad analogy, me thinks. With regard to standard of movement and cost, I was informed that is was slightly more expensive than an Eta 2824.2, but of a very comparable quality. Given the cost of the watch, I just didn't want to feel that it was being powered by a cheap throw away movement. I have visited the Miyota site, and that has only served to give me confidence. Thanks again for your replies.
Rest easy. Miyota were established and are owned by Citizen - who know a thing or two about making watches at all levels!

Speaking purely for myself, I don't currently have a Miyota driven watch, but I would have no hesitation buying one if the right design and opportunity arose.
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by strapline » Thu May 16, 2019 2:57 pm

H0rati0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:44 pm
strapline wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 pm
Rest easy. Miyota were established and are owned by Citizen - who know a thing or two about making watches at all levels!

Speaking purely for myself, I don't currently have a Miyota driven watch, but I would have no hesitation buying one if the right design and opportunity arose.
Thanks for that H0rati0... I am quickly learning that you are a fountain of knowledge/opinion, as well as a frequent visitor to the forum. I know the Japanese were almost responsible for the demise of the automatic watch market in the 70's, but you only have to look at Grand Seiko to know that they have skin in the game. Suddenly I find myself thinking of grail watches... :lol: :lol:
I'm a tool watch kinda guy; bezels and pushers for me. I used to dive, I used to climb mountains. I spend too much time looking at watches.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by keepitsimple » Thu May 16, 2019 3:03 pm

H0rati0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:51 am
Cousins UK quick check:

Miyota 9130 £125
ETA 2824.2 £121.95

YMMV of course!

I fully agree that the Miyota 9130 is not directly comparable to the ETA 2824 (nor is the spec as tight) but that was the original proposition.
When I saw those headline prices you found at Cousins I thought wow ! even with the VAT added, those eta prices make things marginal when you compare the cost of servicing a movement versus fitting a new one. Brill - I've got an account with Cousins, so perhaps time to buy :thumbup:

But, there's a catch.......the movements priced at £121.95 + VAT are listed by Cousins as "loose pack".

Cousins state : "These movements have been supplied from the factory in non-sealed bulk packaging originally destined to be fitted to watch cases for the retail market. Whilst all will be complete and in working order, the lubrication may be subject to normal deterioration during transport and storage and may require some servicing prior to fitting....". So, you don't know what if any work may be needed to get them up to good long term reliable performance. The brand new sealed ones they sell are £225 +VAT which is a fairer comparison.

Even that isn't the OP's original proposition anyway, as that asked for a comparison with elabore grade. Both those prices are for standard grade. Cousins don't seem to stock elabore grade at all at any price.

I'd buy a sealed one from them, despite the difficulty in getting them to accept returns for any reason. They operate as wholesale not retail traders, and are not subject to the distance selling regulations as a lot of people have found. Returning the loose pack ones I'm sure would be impossible !
I'm assuming that the Miyota 9130's will be brand new, sealed, especially as they don't have them in stock yet.

Proper apples to apples comparison of the 9130 against an equivalent eta movement isn't realistic, as eta only do one reserve movement I think, which is a totally different calibre and a different size. (I don't know the price, but I'd guess not low).

I wonder where Cousins got all these loose pack movements from ? Surely not from Swatch group, especially bearing in mind the legal conflict they have with them. Perhaps from a smaller manufacturer switching to Selitta or STP, fearing future supply of eta spares.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:19 pm

strapline wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:57 pm


Thanks for that H0rati0... I am quickly learning that you are a fountain of knowledge/opinion, as well as a frequent visitor to the forum. I know the Japanese were almost responsible for the demise of the automatic watch market in the 70's, but you only have to look at Grand Seiko to know that they have skin in the game. Suddenly I find myself thinking of grail watches... :lol: :lol:
Yeah, I tend to hang around here when I should be doing stuff....

I too find it interesting that quartz destroyed the low to mid mechanical market for a while and yet it has bounced back to be bigger than ever and the Japanese have played a big role in nurturing it.

GS - now if you want accuracy the Spring Drive is an all round marvel, though I am conflicted because the quartz oscillator takes away a little of the magic for me. I almost pulled the trigger a couple of years back but the deal fell through so I keep gawping. Maybe one day. Of course the full mechanicals are none too shabby either :lol:
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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by keepitsimple » Thu May 16, 2019 3:25 pm

Back to the OP's issue, and put aside the pricing discussions !


If it were me, I'd look for any evidence you have that the manufacturer claims the performance to be equivalent to the eta 2824 elabore movement. If you can't find any, you might be out of luck on that score.

The easiest solution I think is to find a friendly watchmaker who will put it on a timing machine. If it looks OK, but just regulated badly in the first place, these are simple movements to regulate and a watchmaker probably wouldn't charge you too much to do it for you, and it would be a lot less hassle than sending it back. Only thing is, and hopefully remote, the manufacturer will probably decline any future warranty if someone else has worked on it.

If the watchmaker think's it's way out of Miyota's specification, then send it back. My guess is that is unlikely.

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Re: Miyota movement accuracy query

Post by H0rati0 » Thu May 16, 2019 4:02 pm

keepitsimple wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:03 pm
H0rati0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:51 am
Cousins UK quick check:

Miyota 9130 £125
ETA 2824.2 £121.95

YMMV of course!

I fully agree that the Miyota 9130 is not directly comparable to the ETA 2824 (nor is the spec as tight) but that was the original proposition.
When I saw those headline prices you found at Cousins I thought wow ! even with the VAT added, those eta prices make things marginal when you compare the cost of servicing a movement versus fitting a new one. Brill - I've got an account with Cousins, so perhaps time to buy :thumbup:

But, there's a catch.......the movements priced at £121.95 + VAT are listed by Cousins as "loose pack".

Cousins state : "These movements have been supplied from the factory in non-sealed bulk packaging originally destined to be fitted to watch cases for the retail market. Whilst all will be complete and in working order, the lubrication may be subject to normal deterioration during transport and storage and may require some servicing prior to fitting....". So, you don't know what if any work may be needed to get them up to good long term reliable performance. The brand new sealed ones they sell are £225 +VAT which is a fairer comparison.

Even that isn't the OP's original proposition anyway, as that asked for a comparison with elabore grade. Both those prices are for standard grade. Cousins don't seem to stock elabore grade at all at any price.

I'd buy a sealed one from them, despite the difficulty in getting them to accept returns for any reason. They operate as wholesale not retail traders, and are not subject to the distance selling regulations as a lot of people have found. Returning the loose pack ones I'm sure would be impossible !
I'm assuming that the Miyota 9130's will be brand new, sealed, especially as they don't have them in stock yet.

Proper apples to apples comparison of the 9130 against an equivalent eta movement isn't realistic, as eta only do one reserve movement I think, which is a totally different calibre and a different size. (I don't know the price, but I'd guess not low).

I wonder where Cousins got all these loose pack movements from ? Surely not from Swatch group, especially bearing in mind the legal conflict they have with them. Perhaps from a smaller manufacturer switching to Selitta or STP, fearing future supply of eta spares.
Hmm, your idea of a quick check is much more thorough then mine - I didn't read the small print :lol:

I concede that the Miyota now appears considerably lower cost (I say appears because I have no idea what quantity breaks might apply for manufacturing quantities) though far from cheapo. From a professional service perspective, I would have thought it just more cost effective to service and adjust than replace - but I am not a professional and I would not mind either way so long as functionality was constant.

But interesting turf you turn over. I've always found Cousins to be straightforward to deal with (not that I do much) so I would suspect those Loose Pack are good to go, but I understand your caution. As you say they are set up to deal with the trade, not the public so caveat emptor. If they have managed to pick up an overstock type deal from somebody, maybe somebody somewhere did not quite meet their targets for this year? I can't think somebody switching to Sellita would precipitate as practically all parts are interchangeable and surely you'd clear out first to avoid a writedown? I hear that things are not so easy for the Swiss these days given the strength of the SFR and the overhead of supporting the Borg.

The original comparison remains tricky and apples to apples was never really in it but for our purposes I thought the rough outline provided some context. For the record given a choice I would rather go Swiss, the ETA I feel offers a touch more all round refinement and pedigree though the Japanese are superb as well. Nice to choose between two such - if that was all there was to decide which of course it never is. Meanwhile CW do offer the 2893 Elabore for the GMTs (they have to of course because ETA do not supply standard grade I believe) and quote ±20s/d so I still think the OP's watch is in the ballpark which I where I came in. :D

cheers
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