Statues

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Old Bald One
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Statues

Post by Old Bald One »

I’m following, with very mixed feelings, the current mood which involves the removal/destruction of statues. I can understand the depths of feeling behind this but, are we to rewrite our history? Should we remove all statues and references to the British empire? I appreciate that things were done in the past that we might not be proud of today, but it is still our history.
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Re: Statues

Post by kiter65 »

Totally agree...we can’t rewrite history but we can learn from it good or bad
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Re: Statues

Post by jkbarnes »

I think it’s worth noting that statues are erected to commemorate, elevate, and celebrate. Removing a statue isn’t rewriting or ignoring history, it’s simply saying this person is no longer worth commemorating, elevating, or celebrating.

Some statues ought to be taken down because they absolutely commemorate, elevate or celebrate the wrong thing. But it ought to be done with proper forethought and consideration and not necessarily in a reactionary way.
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Re: Statues

Post by Old Bald One »

Agreed, as long as it is a democratic decision, rather than the “mob rule” that has been exhibited, both here and in the USA. History is how we learn and, hopefully, become a better society.
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Re: Statues

Post by Caller »

jkbarnes wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:46 pm I think it’s worth noting that statues are erected to commemorate, elevate, and celebrate. Removing a statue isn’t rewriting or ignoring history, it’s simply saying this person is no longer worth commemorating, elevating, or celebrating.

Some statues ought to be taken down because they absolutely commemorate, elevate or celebrate the wrong thing. But it ought to be done with proper forethought and consideration and not necessarily in a reactionary way.
Why should statues be taken down because of who they commemorate?

So someone who may have shaped history, but was also a slave trader, but at the same time was a noted philanthropist who helped change society for the better? Where do they fit in in the 'no longer worth commemorating' blame game? Or can you just pick and choose the bits you do or don't want to commemorate? Should Bristol or Liverpool be raised to the ground? Would that sate the blood lust? What about Lincoln's statue, after all, he benefitted greatly by having a slave trader father in law and initially thought that all slaves be freed and then sent to a new homeland abroad. Or even Kennedy, who seemed ambivalent about the civil rights movement, by deeds, if not words. Should the Police be protecting his memorial at Runnymede?

By removing statues you are seeking to revise history. You are physically removing what was placed there because of all the things you state. How that person was judged at that moment of time in our history. In my opinion, they pass the test of time by remaining where they are and help commemorate and reflect how the Country has moved on and progressed since such days - if used wisely and I appear to be of that generation when it was (primary school days out in London from my SW London school, when the lesson took place, physically at such statues of the good and bad. I was awe struck).

Slavery is a continual feature of human history. It features in the bible and Mohammed dabbled. It was was there way before the British and American slaver traders, and it continued long after Wilberforce et al completed their work and was only formally prohibited under international law at the League of Nations in 1926. It continues today across the World, but that doesn't seem to feature much in the protests. Only recently, Ethiopian 'maids' have been dumped at their embassy in the Lebanon as they are no longer wanted or needed. And if a tourist in Thailand, you enjoy the fish and seafood, or even enjoying frozen, in the UK, think about the fact that people are tricked into servitude on fishing vessels, which is rife across SE Asia. I met one such person 2 years ago in Cambodia. It took him two years to break free (Thai fishing vessel). This is all well documented.

The current events are just a race to the bottom and demonstrate we have created a generation of ignorant political philistines.
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Re: Statues

Post by nbg »

At least one European leader has tackled it head on, rather than kicking it into the long grass.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/macron-france ... 19380.html

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Re: Statues

Post by jkbarnes »

Caller wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:44 pm The current events are just a race to the bottom and demonstrate we have created a generation of ignorant political philistines.
This last line suggests to me that we’re so far apart, there’s probably not much to engage in...at least not in the very limiting format that is an online forum. Face-to-face over a few beers might be a very different and rewarding experience.

I’ll suggest we simply agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
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Re: Statues

Post by A1soknownas »

Statues don't personally offend me if they stay up, but I am also not offended if some are taken down - I cannot begin to imagine the revulsion some may feel towards a distasteful figure that is celebrated in front of them.

We don't need statues to learn about history. Taking them down doesn't delete a passage of history either. It creates a new event to be seen in history.

Taking such statues down is the opposite of ignorance for some, imagine if we could document this event where we have acknowledged and respected others, shown empathy and willingness to change, even if we do not understand. That would be writing a different future for many and learning from the past.

The way some statues are forced down is unfortunate, but I believe that the Bristol statue has been under a campaign for a while and ignored. Often a democratic discussion/decision by those not affected does not result in the desired outcome for those that are, no matter how genuine and worthy the cause.

What frustrates me the most is that a valid debate cannot be had and is hijacked by the politicians, the media and extremist to promote their own agenda and the discussion is lost forever in a sea of hate.

I believe Fawlty Towers is back on tv by the way!
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Re: Statues

Post by oberonfoto »

I see we have a new one in London - Boris Johnston in his fridge:
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Re: Statues

Post by Lavaine »

I think that rather than removing statues and ignoring history, what is needed is a change to the narrative. We can commemorate historical figures, but at the same time we must be able to place their actions in a modern context. Show both sides of the story as it were. "John Smith noted scientist, explorer, and a patron of the arts... He obtained his considerable wealth as a slave trader..."
Tell the whole story, and let people decide for themselves if these historical figures are heroes or villains.
I think Hungary might have the right idea with Memento Park. This park houses the statues that were removed from around Budapest after the fall of communism, presenting them within a historical context.
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Re: Statues

Post by Thegreyman »

The survivors of Auschwitz wanted the camp to be preserved rather than torn down in order to remind future generations and educate them as to what happened, lest it ever be forgotten. I suppose that is one viewpoint re retaining statues, as Lavaine says perhaps with suitable updating of the narrative.
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Re: Statues

Post by Wis »

jkbarnes wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:32 pm
Caller wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:44 pm The current events are just a race to the bottom and demonstrate we have created a generation of ignorant political philistines.
This last line suggests to me that we’re so far apart, there’s probably not much to engage in...at least not in the very limiting format that is an online forum. Face-to-face over a few beers might be a very different and rewarding experience.

I’ll suggest we simply agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
I admire your restraint. This thread shows why the ‘no politics’ rule makes sense, and should be enforced. Otherwise it is a slippery slope. It is predictable and frankly frustrating that the reasonable voices of the many drown in the sound and fury of a loud few that appear to lack both empathy and a dose of humility when faced with complex issues.
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Re: Statues

Post by jkbarnes »

Wis wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:09 pm I admire your restraint. This thread shows why the ‘no politics’ rule makes sense, and should be enforced. Otherwise it is a slippery slope.
Slippery slope indeed! I thought long and hard about whether or not to comment on this thread, and then chose and edited my words very carefully when I did.
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Re: Statues

Post by jtc »

My feeling is that there are more important issues at hand than removing statues, and more compelling efforts to invest energy in to make progress for #blacklivesmatter.
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Re: Statues

Post by Wis »

Fair enough Jon. Symbols do matter though. That’s why statues are erected, isn’t it? But there is a danger that the whole thing descends into a demand for absolute purity. That is never good.
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