Would you buy a plug in electric car?

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by H0rati0 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:45 pm

Lavaine wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:18 pm
H0rati0 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:49 am
Lavaine wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:04 am
but with 224hp combined, I imagine it's a decently spirited drive when you want it to be.
This is the delusion with electric cars. Use the power for any length of time and the battery will give maybe 5% of the quoted range, not to mention probably overheating.

I see Teslas on the autobahn once in a while. They're the ones in the inside lane doing 50mph with the trucks while everybody else hammers by.

One of my students (he is an engineer) has a neighbour with a Tesla. Midwinter he can't make it from Bernau to Munich, a distance of 60 miles.

You are being sold snake oil.
And this is the problem with modern technology: People don't understand what they are talking about, but pretend they are experts. The Mini PHEV isn't an electric car. It's a plug-in hybrid. It has plenty of range in all weather. As for the supposed 5% of quoted range, and your students friend not being able to drive 60 miles, one is pure BS, and the other is lying or drives like a complete ass all the time. In a Northern Canadian WInter, owner experience is a loss of ~30-40% of range on the coldest days. This would give a short range Tesla a range of about 200km at normal highway speeds of 100-110 km/h. On the track owners have found a Model S good for about an hour of all-out track time, probably somewhere in the range of 100-150km. On the highway at full throttle, the car should be capable for in excess of 150km (although due to inadequate cooling, top speed will reduce at some point from 155 mph to around 130-140mph.

I agree that range needs to be improved for winter climates in particular, but everything you said above is pure garbage and not in any way related to the part of my post that you quoted.
You should read my post more carefully. I did not refer at all to the Mini hybrid, I explicitly quoted only wrt to electrical performance, but I apologise if it appears out of context.

There is no need to proffer personal insults, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am more than happy to have the drains up at any level with you. With any battery pack, asking for full power will dramatically reduce operating time and lead to abnormal heating. You appear to agree even if you quibble over the exact percentage reduction which of course depends on power delivery profile.

Normal highway speeds in Germany are typically 140 - 160 Kmph (90-100mph). In winter with climate, battery heating etc and traffic congestion your high performance range of 100 - 150 Km approximates the distance (60 mls/100km) & conditions I was talking about. Fact is his neighbour didn't make it and many factors could affect that, eg I do not know the spec of that car. Whatever, he was surprised at the limited range compared to what he had been told.

That said, I do agree that hybrids and maybe pure electrics (electric motors are more or less ideal powerplants) will be the way to go at some point (unless fuel cells overtake first) but comparing electric and ICE should be done on a level playing field, ie excluding taxes and incentives while honestly assessing life time costs. Today, I believe EVs come out expensive, are oversold and propagandised. One day, maybe soon they will make sense but hyping them up does not impress.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by Galton321 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:49 pm

Unless the technology improves considerably I just don't think that on current technology and the charging infrastructure that will be needed that scaling EVs to 32 million plus cars is impracticable. Society's attitude to personal transport will need to change.

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by golfjunky » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:41 am

Thegreyman wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:11 pm
golfjunky wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:57 pm
Imho having a PHEV is super easy and prob easier better than a traditional fuelled car. I just plug it in every night on my drive with a normal 3 pin plug. It means I visit a fuel station very rarely and when I do a big journey I just fill up with petrol like normal. Every morning I have 20-25 miles of range for £1
I don't know about your Mini but the PHEV BMW's have a much smaller fuel tank e.g. BMW 330e 40 litres vs standard 3 series 59 litres. So the range of some PHEV's is compromised on longer journeys, more trips to the petrol station.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by PaulJS » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 am

golfjunky wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:06 pm
PaulJS wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:59 pm
In my view, as it stands, they are horses for very rare courses.
its the negativity in that last statement that gets me. i honestly think as mentioned it is just a change of mindset that is needed. once you in, up and running it really is no different to me.
taken from Google so not sure how correct but
"The average length of a commuter trip by car/van varies little across English regions and Wales at about ten miles. It is highest in the South East (11.2 miles) and lowest in London (8.6 miles)." the source was the RAC foundation
Sorry if this came across as negative - that was not my intention, I just think I am looking at this issue from a different perspective to your good self.

I will try to illustrate and forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions :

1. I buy my cars outright, usually at 6 months old and keep them for 10 years plus. You have said that you have had two new PHEVs in four years, so you are either prepared to lose more on cars in depreciation than me or they are company cars?

The relevance of this difference in ownership profile is that the batteries are good for 6 - 8 years, and, once out of warranty, I like to do all my own maintenance. Hence, one of my vehicles is a 13 year old Shogun that has been round the world a number of times and has barely had a spanner to it that has not been held by me. PHEVs are effectively throw away vehicles because the cost of replacement batteries will be prohibitive, and in any case who knows how reliable the petrol / electric interface technology will prove to be? Electronic gremlins are already being described as the new rust.

2. I live in North Devon from where it is a long way to everywhere and there are no public transport options to speak of, so if I want to avoid spending most of my journeys dragging along a boat anchor for no benefit I would need to buy a PHEV just for those short journeys of 4 miles to the nearest town and this just would not cost in over the lifespan of the batteries. It would be more cost effective to buy a used supermini that does 60 to the gallon to use for short runs.

3. I, like lots of people, regularly hook up a big trailer and drag around horses, cars, building equipment and materials. Even the Mitsi PHEV can't do this as the weight penalty of the batteries kills the towing capacity. Plus, even if the towing capacity was sufficient, the additional weight of a 3.5 tonne trailer would kill the batteries after one Devonshire hill.


So in summary, I think we may just have drastically different lifestyles that demand totally different things from our vehicles and hence have opposing perspectives on the merits of EVs in their current forms.

It seems to me that if most of a users journeys fall into the categories stated in your extract from Google why on earth do you need a car of any description - use public transport or get an E-Bike!

The last thing I would say though, is that come the Zombie Apocalypse when the grid is down and your connected Hybrid has been hacked and disabled by a Cyber Virus you will wish you had an old oil burner from the last century and some big tanks of red diesel behind the barn :lol:

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by TigerChris » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:06 am

All this talk about charging infrastructures, range, etc.. but I'm gonna go right down to the most simple, basic, reason that I don't like electric cars - you can't beat the sound of an engine, simple. Hybrids I can just about cope with but CVT gearboxes lack any 'feel' at all. Our lass has a hybrid which she loves. It's a lovely comfortable smooth drive for knocking about, loads of tech etc.. but I couldn't drive it everyday. I'll stick to polluting the atmosphere with my Diesel X3 as my daily and my 1996 MX5 for a bit of fun. I've driven a Tesla and it was a soulless thing - my 23 year old 1.8 petrol MX5 will put 'miles more smiles' on your face than the Tesla would anyday.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by TigerChris » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:09 am

PaulJS wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 am

It seems to me that if most of a users journeys fall into the categories stated in your extract from Google why on earth do you need a car of any description - use public transport or get an E-Bike!

The last thing I would say though, is that come the Zombie Apocalypse when the grid is down and your connected Hybrid has been hacked and disabled by a Cyber Virus you will wish you had an old oil burner from the last century and some big tanks of red diesel behind the barn :lol:

Cheers,

Paul
Bang on that, Paul. Average journey of approx 10 miles? Get a push iron then! Everyone should have a supply of red for 'emergency purposes' too :D
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by PaulJS » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:24 am

TigerChris wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:09 am
PaulJS wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 am

It seems to me that if most of a users journeys fall into the categories stated in your extract from Google why on earth do you need a car of any description - use public transport or get an E-Bike!

The last thing I would say though, is that come the Zombie Apocalypse when the grid is down and your connected Hybrid has been hacked and disabled by a Cyber Virus you will wish you had an old oil burner from the last century and some big tanks of red diesel behind the barn :lol:

Cheers,

Paul
Bang on that, Paul. Average journey of approx 10 miles? Get a push iron then! Everyone should have a supply of red for 'emergency purposes' too :D
Of course for emergencies only :wink:

When I see all the farmers round here knocking about in their ancient 4WD I do wonder what's in the tank - I never seem to see any of them at the local filling station!

But it would be a brave VOSA employee that would pull over one of these old boys!

Cheers,

Paul

PS I am with you on the whole real driving experience of a proper engine and on the MX5 - best 4 wheel grins per pound IMO
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by TigerChris » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:46 am

PaulJS wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:24 am

Of course for emergencies only :wink:
Of course, I'd never dream of it being anything other..... :silent: :D :wink:
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by ALFROBE » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:29 pm

Teslas are too expensive right now.

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by DavecUK » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:43 pm

Yes, I would and did. However, it's not for everyone and certainly won't save most people money...not yet anyway. The initial purchase cost is so high and in the case of my car it's essentially an expensive throw away item at 8 years. If something major happens to it even past 3 years old it will be written off and a significant fault at 4 years could cost almost half 30%+ of what the car is worth to put right.

The charging infrastructure is still rubbish and we have a diesel as a second car. Electric cars are joy to drive though, fast, easy and fun....and good in heavy traffic.

I was foolish enough to get the BMW i3 Range extender...it takes Rolex servicing money to run....well actually when they are out of warranty you can extend the warranty by 2 more years and up to 60K miles...that's all at a cost of about £900 per year (god help you if you don't take the warranty out a fault/repair might cost 6K). On top of that is the 2 year service interval. It all adds up to around £1200 pa and I didn't even mention the cost of the special tyres! That's probably 3 Rolex services per year.

Much like watch collecting, electric cars are for the enthusiast....but it's changing.

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by PaulJS » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 am

DavecUK wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Yes, I would and did. However, it's not for everyone and certainly won't save most people money...not yet anyway. The initial purchase cost is so high and in the case of my car it's essentially an expensive throw away item at 8 years. If something major happens to it even past 3 years old it will be written off and a significant fault at 4 years could cost almost half 30%+ of what the car is worth to put right.

The charging infrastructure is still rubbish and we have a diesel as a second car. Electric cars are joy to drive though, fast, easy and fun....and good in heavy traffic.

I was foolish enough to get the BMW i3 Range extender...it takes Rolex servicing money to run....well actually when they are out of warranty you can extend the warranty by 2 more years and up to 60K miles...that's all at a cost of about £900 per year (god help you if you don't take the warranty out a fault/repair might cost 6K). On top of that is the 2 year service interval. It all adds up to around £1200 pa and I didn't even mention the cost of the special tyres! That's probably 3 Rolex services per year.

Much like watch collecting, electric cars are for the enthusiast....but it's changing.
For what its worth I think this is just about the most balanced and informed overview of electric vehicles I have seen.

Every emerging technology needs early adopters for it to progress to become a mainstream product and this is where EVs are right now. No doubt we will all be using something other than petrol / diesel in the fullness of time but the alternative products and their essential supporting infrastructures ( be this EV, Hydrogen Fuel Cell or whatever ) aren't there yet.

Cheers,

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by TigerChris » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:44 am

PaulJS wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 am
DavecUK wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Yes, I would and did. However, it's not for everyone and certainly won't save most people money...not yet anyway. The initial purchase cost is so high and in the case of my car it's essentially an expensive throw away item at 8 years. If something major happens to it even past 3 years old it will be written off and a significant fault at 4 years could cost almost half 30%+ of what the car is worth to put right.

The charging infrastructure is still rubbish and we have a diesel as a second car. Electric cars are joy to drive though, fast, easy and fun....and good in heavy traffic.

I was foolish enough to get the BMW i3 Range extender...it takes Rolex servicing money to run....well actually when they are out of warranty you can extend the warranty by 2 more years and up to 60K miles...that's all at a cost of about £900 per year (god help you if you don't take the warranty out a fault/repair might cost 6K). On top of that is the 2 year service interval. It all adds up to around £1200 pa and I didn't even mention the cost of the special tyres! That's probably 3 Rolex services per year.

Much like watch collecting, electric cars are for the enthusiast....but it's changing.
For what its worth I think this is just about the most balanced and informed overview of electric vehicles I have seen.

Every emerging technology needs early adopters for it to progress to become a mainstream product and this is where EVs are right now. No doubt we will all be using something other than petrol / diesel in the fullness of time but the alternative products and their essential supporting infrastructures ( be this EV, Hydrogen Fuel Cell or whatever ) aren't there yet.

Cheers,

Paul
The sad thing is that future generations will never get to experience a proper engine with a proper gearbox. Just the soulless electric stuff
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by what-time-is-it » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:50 am

Something else that will need to change is human behaviour when crossing roads, car parks, junctions etc

You'd be surprised how many people look with their ears when it comes to vehicle awareness. The amount of oblivious pedestrians that walked in front of our moving Nissan Leaf, especially at parking speeds was ridiculous.

Their is talk of a standard noise to alert pedestrians, but the Leaf had a low pitch whistle which the majority ignored.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by PaulJS » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:06 am

what-time-is-it wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:50 am
Something else that will need to change is human behaviour when crossing roads, car parks, junctions etc

You'd be surprised how many people look with their ears when it comes to vehicle awareness. The amount of oblivious pedestrians that walked in front of our moving Nissan Leaf, especially at parking speeds was ridiculous.

Their is talk of a standard noise to alert pedestrians, but the Leaf had a low pitch whistle which the majority ignored.
That is a really good point - I recently steered ( no pun intended) my Octogenarian father in law away from getting a hybrid Auris ( as advised by his oh so green and idealistic but clueless son ) due to the hazards of pedestrians stepping out in front of a silent vehicle and him possibly not having the reactions to avoid them.

The other way to view this, however, is Darwinism as the mobile phone obsessed species are inexorably expunged from the planet :D

Cheers,

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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?

Post by PaulJS » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:12 am

TigerChris wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:44 am
PaulJS wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 am
DavecUK wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Yes, I would and did. However, it's not for everyone and certainly won't save most people money...not yet anyway. The initial purchase cost is so high and in the case of my car it's essentially an expensive throw away item at 8 years. If something major happens to it even past 3 years old it will be written off and a significant fault at 4 years could cost almost half 30%+ of what the car is worth to put right.

The charging infrastructure is still rubbish and we have a diesel as a second car. Electric cars are joy to drive though, fast, easy and fun....and good in heavy traffic.

I was foolish enough to get the BMW i3 Range extender...it takes Rolex servicing money to run....well actually when they are out of warranty you can extend the warranty by 2 more years and up to 60K miles...that's all at a cost of about £900 per year (god help you if you don't take the warranty out a fault/repair might cost 6K). On top of that is the 2 year service interval. It all adds up to around £1200 pa and I didn't even mention the cost of the special tyres! That's probably 3 Rolex services per year.

Much like watch collecting, electric cars are for the enthusiast....but it's changing.
For what its worth I think this is just about the most balanced and informed overview of electric vehicles I have seen.

Every emerging technology needs early adopters for it to progress to become a mainstream product and this is where EVs are right now. No doubt we will all be using something other than petrol / diesel in the fullness of time but the alternative products and their essential supporting infrastructures ( be this EV, Hydrogen Fuel Cell or whatever ) aren't there yet.

Cheers,

Paul
The sad thing is that future generations will never get to experience a proper engine with a proper gearbox. Just the soulless electric stuff

'Tis sad indeed - with overpopulation and ever increasing restrictions on our freedoms to do what we wish, championed by ill informed yoghurt knitting do-gooders, it is becoming increasingly evident that we are a bit of a golden generation with the freedom ( of both action and thought ) and affluence to do largely what we want to do - for the time being at least.

Don't get me started!

Cheers,

Paul
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