C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Craig64 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:08 pm

H0rati0 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:22 am
Thermexman wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:50 pm
Not having seen one in the flesh or, indeed compared several, to see if yours is, in fact, normal, I couldn’t possibly comment on wether or not yours is acceptable. What I will suggest though, is that, if it’s niggling you now, it probably always will. I’d send it back. You could always order another, sometime in the future, in the hope you get a better one?
Agree. If it niggles now It won't go away. Send it back, move on.
I agree too.

Out of interest, I have the same model, Mk3 Trident in the 40mm case. Although the bezel has slightly more side to side play than my 3 Mk2 Tridents, for me personally it causes zero issues, and this watch is my favourite of the 4.

Craig
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 pm

One thing I have learnt, with all the current discussion about sloppy bezels on the C60 Trident Mk3, is that the bezel on mine is smooth and light enough that it can be turned comfortably between thumb and little finger or just by placing the palm of my hand flat on the crystal / bezel and being able to turn the bezel.

There is only one other brand / watch that I know where this can be done, which is the Elliot Brown Holton Professional.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by FloridaPhil » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:31 pm

Bahnstormer_vRS wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 pm
One thing I have learnt, with all the current discussion about sloppy bezels on the C60 Trident Mk3, is that the bezel on mine is smooth and light enough that it can be turned comfortably between thumb and little finger or just by placing the palm of my hand flat on the crystal / bezel and being able to turn the bezel.

There is only one other brand / watch that I know where this can be done, which is the Elliot Brown Holton Professional.

Guy

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My Grand Seiko is by far the smoothest, easiest and most positive bezel action I've ever experienced, including JLC, Rolex Submariner and Omega PO. I've not tried, and likely won't, a Trident Mk3.

If the Trident is comparable then it's quite an achievement to match a watch costing at least 5x as much.
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by A1soknownas » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:42 pm

This text below is from an official CW response to another buyer on Trust Pilot who experienced issues with their bezel movement. I suspect this issue is bigger than they are letting on which is why people are either being offered a refund or to keep the watch and accept that it is within their tolerance with no replacements option at all. What is frustrating is that they refer to lateral play only. The issue I and others have had has not being side to side rotational movement but how the bezel itself moves up and down or away from the crystal which I have never experienced on any other watch -

(02/07/19) Many thanks for the feedback and I'm so sorry you're disappointed. In creating Trident 3, Christopher Ward have gone through an extensive product research process, resulting in iterative testing to support the process of re-engineering the unidirectional diving bezel to be the most precise and aurally attractive bezel we have ever produced. Attainment of the very highest quality standard has been our goal throughout.

In achieving the improvements we have made to the bezel, which have been recognised as a more precise, stable and attractive-sounding rotating action, we have aimed to make it not just as good as we could make it, but also as strong as the best on the market, which are often available for many times the price of Trident 3. We have made many improvements to the bezel’s sound, click and rotation of which we are justifiably proud. The levels of lateral movement or ‘play’ of the Trident 3 bezel are well within standard industry comparisons; however we care very much for our customers queries and as a result, and as part of our programme of continuous quality improvement, we are embarking on a review of the new bezel’s action and performance, working to achieve the same high quality standard we have so far achieved in sound, click and rotation yet further, with the lateral movement.

Trident 3 owners can be assured that any lateral movement of ‘play’ in the bezel will not worsen over time and is not a sign of malfunction or damage to the bezel. We are listening and determined to improve; feedback to our product design and technical teams is welcomed, to accelerate the process of making our bezel function the best that it can be.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Fat-Sam » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:14 am

I had to send my 40mm mk3 back today as the rotor spun when I wound it and the power reserve had been lacking on occasion.

The bezel on mine was disappointing but probably not enough that I would have sent it back without the other issues, although the fuss they made about how great the bezel was opened them up to the criticism in my opinion. My expectations were raised after hearing one of the owners claim it was the second best bezel on the market behind Rolex.

The watch is good and overall I wasnt disappointed, i liked the feel, size and design of my first CW, but the price is not far off Sinn, Oris and some decent Seikos so customers expectations are higher than when I first considered a trident... for £300

I hope mine is replaced before the gtg in August
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by watchaholic » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:30 am

No play up and down, or lateral in my ACAN at all. It can be turned with thumb and little finger. Seems perfectly fine.
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by PaulJS » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:05 am

It is interesting to hear different peoples' experiences with essentially the same product and, although I hesitate to use the word 'tolerence', I think that CW do have a defendable position. I just don't think they are articulating it very well.

Here is why :

All mechanical components are produced to an engineering tolerance and the case / bezel components are no different. When these various components are mated together they will produce a product whose tolerance is effectively the sum of the components' tolerence. There will inevitably be some variation in this final tolerence.

You may be lucky and get the ultimate combination where the tolerence of each component compliments all the others and everything is ' tight' but moves correctly, or it may be reverse and have a bit more play than ideal. Most will be somewhere in the middle.

An analogy would be two 'identical' engines which, on a dyno, produce different power because one has cylinders that are a. closer match to the bores and the valves are perfectly lapped and it has minimal extraneous casting encroaching into the head where the gases flow etc, etc.

All components in both engines are within tolerance, but one engine has a fortunate combination of components and so works better.

So, while I don't expect CW to go into great detail about their component tolerence, manufacturing processes and assembly regime, it would be helpful to have some real world perspective from them in the marketing blurb. Even if it just some B/S about a bit of up and down float being normal with this design of bezel. Those that then get a watch with a bit of deflection in the bezel will be happy and those that don't will be happier!

The marketing hyperbole just sets them up for a fall and their customers for a disappointment.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Craig64 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:04 pm

I think you made some very valid points Paul, and very well explained.
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by A1soknownas » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Yes, a very good explanation regarding the tolerance which everyone must appreciate when considering how perfect they expect their product to be.

It is important that CW then reciprocate this understanding by not just using tolerance as a way of deflecting the few watches that honestly do fall on the edge of that tolerance - however wide this may be and the number of watches affected we will never know.

Despite the potential of what a quality value for money offering the new Trident may be it is only as good as the worst one they are prepared to let out of the door.

Reputations fall as quickly as they rise, regardless of how many watches that are sent out to youtubers. To be clear I am not criticising this method of promotion but it may indicate a business strategy and a potential change in demographic of the customer that is needed to grow the business which then impacts upon numbers in production, quality tolerances and the ability to provide an appropriate level of customer support.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by PaulJS » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:02 pm

A1soknownas wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Despite the potential of what a quality value for money offering the new Trident may be it is only as good as the worst one they are prepared to let out of the door.

Reputations fall as quickly as they rise, regardless of how many watches that are sent out to youtubers. To be clear I am not criticising this method of promotion but it may indicate a business strategy and a potential change in demographic of the customer that is needed to grow the business which then impacts upon numbers in production, quality tolerances and the ability to provide an appropriate level of customer support.
Absolutely, nail squarely on head.

As always it is a trade off between quality and price - pay top whack and you are paying for the manufacturer to discard a percentage of components / products that don't make the grade - sometimes a significant percentage. Unfortunately, at this price point we are a very long way from this rationale.

When CW were knocking out auto Tridents at a few hundred pounds it wasn't hard to exceed customer expectations. Now that they are pushing into the thousands it can be a much tougher audience and, TBH, people like us who frequent places like can be the toughest!

Personally I would never part with more than £500 for a CW watch because I also have Omega, Rolex and Tag Heuer watches that have given me a metric on quality that I know CW will never match.

This is not to say that they are not great watches - I have half a dozen CW watches which I enjoy owning and which all punch above their weight in terms of value for money, but they cost between £225 and £500 each.

IMHO this sector is where CW's sweet spot was and where they should have stayed because there is a significant amount of gathering evidence that they can neither reliably supply a higher end product nor provide the kind of after sales services that buyers expect at the higher price point.

Having said all of the above, maybe they are more than content flogging more for more to a less discerning audience and hoping that us sometime whinge bags and nay sayers on the forum will just give up and go away leaving this place to be a happy clappy enclave of sycophants!

To coin a phrase....you pays your money and makes your choice.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Craig64 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:53 pm

Well reasoned and interesting points made, both by A1 and Paul.

Just to pick up on some of the points that Paul made:

Trade off between quality and price: One thing that wasn’t mentioned was just how much extra you pay purely for the premium brand name. Pay top whack and you are paying a big amount primarily for the brand name, arguably above all else. Quality, yes also, I agree.

In terms of the quality metric that was mentioned, and also after sales service, I would not take for granted that makes such as Rolex deliver impeccable results. When my Rolex came back from its first service, its crown action, winding and date adjustment never felt right. I won’t be paying another £400 plus for a routine service again. I will wait until it malfunctions.

Finally, in respect of the CW brand, I can only genuinely speak from my own purchasing experience. Having purchased 4 of their Trident watches within the last 12 months, I have been really very impressed with their products, absolutely delighted.

Would I pay more than £500 for another one?

Yes, without hesitation.

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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by H0rati0 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:44 pm

PaulJS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:02 pm


Personally I would never part with more than £500 for a CW watch because I also have Omega, Rolex and Tag Heuer watches that have given me a metric on quality that I know CW will never match.

I have to disagree. CW can make watches right up there with the biggest names and way beyond Tag. The C8PR for example is a masterpiece (and possibly other SH21 models, though I cannot speak for them). Granted it costs a lot more than £500 and rightly so, but the VFM is industry leading.
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by nbg » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:07 pm

PaulJS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:02 pm
A1soknownas wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Despite the potential of what a quality value for money offering the new Trident may be it is only as good as the worst one they are prepared to let out of the door.

Reputations fall as quickly as they rise, regardless of how many watches that are sent out to youtubers. To be clear I am not criticising this method of promotion but it may indicate a business strategy and a potential change in demographic of the customer that is needed to grow the business which then impacts upon numbers in production, quality tolerances and the ability to provide an appropriate level of customer support.
Absolutely, nail squarely on head.

As always it is a trade off between quality and price - pay top whack and you are paying for the manufacturer to discard a percentage of components / products that don't make the grade - sometimes a significant percentage. Unfortunately, at this price point we are a very long way from this rationale.

When CW were knocking out auto Tridents at a few hundred pounds it wasn't hard to exceed customer expectations. Now that they are pushing into the thousands it can be a much tougher audience and, TBH, people like us who frequent places like can be the toughest!

Personally I would never part with more than £500 for a CW watch because I also have Omega, Rolex and Tag Heuer watches that have given me a metric on quality that I know CW will never match.

This is not to say that they are not great watches - I have half a dozen CW watches which I enjoy owning and which all punch above their weight in terms of value for money, but they cost between £225 and £500 each.

IMHO this sector is where CW's sweet spot was and where they should have stayed because there is a significant amount of gathering evidence that they can neither reliably supply a higher end product nor provide the kind of after sales services that buyers expect at the higher price point.

Having said all of the above, maybe they are more than content flogging more for more to a less discerning audience and hoping that us sometime whinge bags and nay sayers on the forum will just give up and go away leaving this place to be a happy clappy enclave of sycophants!

To coin a phrase....you pays your money and makes your choice.

Paul
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by Craig64 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:26 pm

H0rati0 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:44 pm
PaulJS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:02 pm


Personally I would never part with more than £500 for a CW watch because I also have Omega, Rolex and Tag Heuer watches that have given me a metric on quality that I know CW will never match.

I have to disagree. CW can make watches right up there with the biggest names and way beyond Tag. The C8PR for example is a masterpiece (and possibly other SH21 models, though I cannot speak for them). Granted it costs a lot more than £500 and rightly so, but the VFM is industry leading.
Well said, Definitely in respect of the Tag comparison.
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Re: C60 Trident Mk3 Bezel Rocking movement?

Post by PaulJS » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:26 am

[/quote]

I have to disagree. CW can make watches right up there with the biggest names and way beyond Tag. The C8PR for example is a masterpiece (and possibly other SH21 models, though I cannot speak for them). Granted it costs a lot more than £500 and rightly so, but the VFM is industry leading.
[/quote]

Happy for you disagree - as I said you pays you money.........

However, first there seems to be little love here for Tag and I am not sure why, maybe it's the demographic? .I am not saying that all their designs float my boat but in my experience they produce a consistently high quality product at a price point that is not extortionate.

In your words, "CW can make watches right up there with the biggest names....." the problem is that they often don't, and when they don't the issue can be compounded by the after sales experience.

When they are at their best CW are fantastic VFM. When they are at their worst you are dropping a potentially serious amount of wedge on a nicely decorated paper weight.
This is why I have the £500 ceiling: if I have <£500 tied up I am not going to get too emotional if I have to play watch ping pong in order to get a problem sorted. However, if it is the thick end of two grand, it is going to seriously upset my equilibrium!

So all CW need to do is sort out the consistency of the product and put in place a robust CS department where the left hand knows that:
1. There is a right hand
2.. What that right hand is doing

The problem is that this will all cost money, and the question is whether the current profit margins support this level of investment.

We all know that the Omegas and Rolexes include a load of advertising in the final price, plus an element of paying for the name. Take that as read when buying, but things are never that simple and you may want to look at lifetime costs including depreciation, servicing and the avoided costs of not wasting a portion of your life trying to get an expensive CW watch repaired or rectified to the state it should have been in when it left the factory!

Take servicing as an example. The last service on my wife's Rolex was £600 and this included a new crystal as she had managed to scratch it. This was at 10 years, as is now standard for Rolex (Omega, I believe are now on an eight year interval). Your CW will be well on its way to its third service by the time your Rolex needs it's first, so the servicing is now looking quite expensive! In fact you may be well on your way to having paid out as much as the watch cost in the first place.

So nothing is as simple as it first appears, that's why we can debate such things on here ad infinitum.

Cheers,

Paul
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