How is CW doing? A personal view.

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:56 pm

OBJECTIVE

To evaluate, in a totally subjective (sic) way, how current Christopher Ward watches stack up against watches from well-known brands costing several times more.

It has to be subjective; I am not a watchmaker, nor am I a metallurgist or a professional reviewer.

I will admit, I have been sceptical in the past regarding CW's claims to rival certain other companies in terms of quality. Value for money, that's perhaps a different measure and I have never been in much doubt about that.

I now have four watches that form what I might call my core collection. These are the ones that currently, and I suspect for the foreseeable future, command the vast majority of my wrist time. The comparison will therefore be realistic and appropriate. These are real working watches; I might wear them at different times and in slightly different ways, but none of them is likely to be unnecessarily abused or pampered.

The watches will be familiar to regular followers. They are, in order of acquisition:

Cartier Tank Solo XL (new February 2016); Omega Speedmaster Professional "Moonwatch" (new March 2017); Christopher Ward C60 Trident 600 GMT (new originally October 2017 - acquired by me May 2018); Christopher Ward C65 Trident Vintage Diver (new November 2018)

Image

Cost is not entirely the issue here, though it is worth pointing out that the Cartier and the Omega retail for several times the price of the CWs. We know that.

INITIAL OVERVIEW

We appear to have four rather fine watches here. Adherents of other brands may argue with that; I can only comment on watches I have handled and lived with and, really, that's all any of us can do.

Nonetheless, these four look great in my opinion, wear well and perform the functions for which they were designed.

In terms of packaging, the materials used by the more costly brands appear to be bit better. The Cartier box is rather stylish and beautiful, though simple. The Omega package is ridiculously oversized. I do like CW's new packaging, but at the end of the day my watches are stored in a nice box, not in their original packaging.

I bought the Cartier and the Omega from the same AD and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. CW, selling almost exclusively online, is clearly different but...if you can get to Maidenhead the showroom experience will blow most ADs out of the water. You can even get to have a friendly chat with the bloke whose name is on the dial.

BUILD, FIT & FINISH

I'm no expert but I'm perfectly happy with all of them. I think the newer CW cases show immense progress in a few short years. The C65 feels very refined. The Cartier, of course, is extremely slim, light and elegant. If the Omega bracelet feels slightly better and smoother, especially in terms of the screwed links, the CW bracelets compensate for this with the superb ratchet clasp that gives a brilliant degree of adjustment. The GMT is about at the limit of size and weight for me, so is more of a leisure and travel watch for me at present because it doesn't wear well under a cuff. They are all steel cased, easy and solid to wind and set, and I can discern little to set any of them apart in this area.

PERFORMANCE

Let's face it, the raison d'être of a watch is to tell the time. Adjusting for known rate, I could happily wear any of these for a week and not worry too much that it would be far out. The Omega is the least precise (+10s/d) but its rate is incredibly stable. Interestingly it is the only one with a 21,600 vph movement; the others are all 28,800.

The GMT gained a miserly 27 seconds over a two-week holiday, as documented here. The Cartier is exceptional on the wrist, though both autos lose slightly on a winder (the Speedy and C65 are manual, of course). The C65 has been phenomenal over the two weeks I have had it.

FUNCTIONALITY

In essence, I like simple watches. Whilst I would not be adverse to some of the prettier complications I don't really have much use for them. I like the Speedy for work because I often use a chronograph. I tend to go for the Cartier if I'm going out in the evening. The GMT is a great travel and holiday watch and the C65 is just beautiful and a joy to wear at any time.

I appreciate legibility in a watch these days and, dates apart, these four are all very easy to read, though of course the Cartier is not lumed. CW lume has definitely improved and, whilst none of the three is in Seiko territory, they are all still pretty visible through the night.

Let's just say that they are all slightly different but they do what they are supposed to do.

LONG-TERM RELIABILITY

Any issues would be disappointing at this stage because they are all fairly or very new. The only one to mention was the quickset date on the Cartier, which was not working consistently. It was sorted by Cartier under warranty, via the AD, in about three weeks.

TWO BIG QUESTIONS

Old and familiar questions, I know, but here goes...

If this were the sum of my collection, would I be happy? I think that's a yes. There is nothing I do that the GMT couldn't handle, and there is nowhere I go that the Cartier wouldn't look top dollar. But I like to have a few others to ring the changes every now and then.

If I had to choose just one? It would have to be the Omega simply because it was bought as a memento shortly after my mother died, and with funds I inherited. But in qualitative terms, I find it difficult to slide a razor blade between any of them. I would hate to lose any of them.

IN CONCLUSION

Looking at these with no prior brand knowledge whatsoever, would I be able to say with any certainty which watches cost £3-4k, and which came in at under £1k? Difficult, with hindsight.

I honestly don't think I would find it easy. They are all superb. Christopher Ward, as I have said before, has come a heck of a long way in a short time, and their recent watches, in my personal and subjective opinion, can stand toe to toe with watches that cost several times more, without any apparent loss of face. And I confidently believe, from what I have been privileged to see, that the next generation is set to raise the bar again.

Please feel free to comment. Thanks for reading. :D
Steve
The half minute which we daily devote to the winding-up of our watches is an exertion of labour almost insensible; yet, by the aid of a few wheels, its effect is spread over the whole twenty-four hours.
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by jtc » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:48 pm

A nice read thanks for writing it.

Given the four watches in the picture...
- the Cartier has a very subtle date window vs the C60's highlighted one (I think I prefer the former)
- the Speedy has a great mix of polished, brushed and matt surfaces, whereas the C60 is very shiny and C65 a little "mono"
- both the Speedy and C60 execute dial depth differently, the former having the iconic dish dials while the C60 has very highly polished applied markers
- the Cartier, Speedy and C60 designs all have hands that feel cohesive while I'm not sure the C65 hands suit the watch. The same comparison 3 v 1 applies to dial balance too I think
- bracelet quality is all excellent, though I think I prefer the simpler design of the CW links
- they all have a unique feature that draws the eye; from left to right it's the crown, the "purposeful tool" dial, the gmt hand and the bezel design
- the mishmash dive/24hr bezel on the C60 is frustrating
- I think with a more interesting watch face and hand set the C65 would be a real winner
- the Cartier suits a thinner strap as an attractive wrist ornament very well, the others are definitely watches first, wrist item second

Not really going anywhere but I found it interesting zooming and viewing the left two as a pair, then the right two. I think CW are doing great things, though the competition in this watch box definitely still delivers more for me. And so it should given the price difference!
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Caller » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:56 pm

My first CW was bought from the showroom in early 2014, I met a bloke called Declan, not Chris Ward, although Declan was a very nice bloke. I bought the Bluebird and eventually sold it via the forum. The showroom experience was very nice, but not so different from a good boutique or AD. I have had better experiences in such diverse places as Southampton, Edinburgh and Bangkok, where my favourite AD has a separate nicely furnished room for each of the main brands they stock.

At the end of 2015, I bought the vintage (matt black sans wavy line) Trident (in a sale) for about the same price as I paid for the Bluebird. Two very different watches, but even so, in respect of build quality and just the general feel of the watch, the Trident was a huge improvement and I still own and wear it.

Design wise, I still find most new CW watches are near misses (latest World Timer) or pretty much spot on - but then for me, the barrier of the logo kicks in. But irrespective of that, it is self evident that they are now in a very different place from where they were when I bought my Trident almost 3-years ago. Unlike some of you old hands, I don't think time has served much of their back catalogue well. But I think that is down to the lack of a clear direction (until fairly recently) of where they were actually headed. Other brands tend to tweak a little here and there. CW have jumped all over the place.

So is my three year old Trident as good as my PO? No it isn't, but nor would I expect it to be, at the price point and target audience it was marketed at, albeit clearly punching way above it's weight. But how will the next generation of Tridents/C60's compare to my, what 6-year old PO? I would assume much better than the current generation. If it doesn't, that's a bit of a failure.

I actually don't get the need to compare the perceived quality of a brands watches as it's all very subjective even if the specs are similar, and we all know that's not the only marker. But it does seem for some, that it is personally important for them to have recognition that their 500 quid watch is as good as a 5000 quid watch (not talking of you here Steve).

So comparing my 4 dive watches, I would say the PO is the top one (design, heft, feel, engine, bracelet) followed by the Trident, then the Seiko PADI, which runs it very close. But in terms of wear, the one I use most is the cheapest - my brass green dialled Armida A8. With the exception of the Trident, they all get wet. I am not planning to get rid of any of them and they are the style of watch I probably wear most.
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Vansflyer » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:41 pm

Very interesting overview, thanks for sharing.
I also have a varied collection of expensive stuff, ones in the middle and also some cheapish stuff.
The CW's I own are the best value bang for buck and the build quality is so good! I do look at the Tudors and think "who is the mug here"? My 13 year old Breitlings are still in great condition and were fair value then, the new ones for sale much less so.
CW win overall for me on most counts...
Summit, Seiko SQ100, Alfex Moonphase, Ingersoll "Triumph","Tin Tin" watch. Seiko 7T39, Navitimer, B1, Aerospace Adv, Citizen Red Arrows, Alfa Branded Mitsumi, Moonphase, C60 Pro SH21, C9 J Hour, C70 VW4. C60 Trident 300. Tudor Pelagos.

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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by PaulJS » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:28 pm

An interesting analysis and one which I think is quite relevant given that a number of members mix CW watches with far more expensive items in their collections.

I bought my first CW (Trident Pro 600) to wear when the conditions were not appropriate for my Speedmaster that cost 9 times more. I wanted something that I found aesthetically pleasing and with a sufficient feeling of quality that it didn't jarr when swapping between my (at the time) only two watches.

For me it fitted the brief perfectly and I went on to buy half a dozen more CW's. None of them are equal to my Speedmasters in terms of quality, design or finish but they are certainly a great deal more than 1/9th in all aspects.
Trident Pro White / Blue
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Essex Paul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:55 pm

Great read Steve, thanks.

Nice collection.... but you’re missing a Rolex. Collection would be complete!
:lol:

Love that C65 TrIdent Diver, my next CW.

My CW showroom experience was amazing and saw the complete CW offering.

Agree that price and quality of CW is best out there for the price range IMHO.
Agreed that high end marques are of the highest manufacture and materials BUT, CW are doing things so right.

Also think the packaging is in line with pricing and is more than good enough. Very nice wooden box, can’t complain at that surely.

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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by golfjunky » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:37 pm

Great post Steve, I echo your comments. Your collection of those four keepers is absolutely stunning and as you say for for all life’s experiences.
Current collection = Omega Seamaster 2225.80.00, Omega Speedmaster 'Moonphase' 3576.50.00, Seiko SRPB43J1, C60 Trident, Casio G Shock 2327, Garmin Vivoactive

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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by 0uatiOW » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Great read Steve, thanks for spending the time to write this. One of the best posts in recent times.

Overall you have set out a strong case for CW being justified in self-identifying as a “luxury” brand. They perhaps don’t have the prestige of the Omegas, Breitlings, Rolexes, etc... etc.... but they do offer a product that stands proud in their company. I’m not saying CW quality matches that of all the big brands, but in my view, it is in the same league.

You do make a strange qualifier to your opinion in the following piece, almost apologetically.
Amor Vincit Omnia wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:56 pm
We appear to have four rather fine watches here. Adherents of other brands may argue with that
I don’t think anyone sensible would argue with your statement. Regardless of one’s personal like or dislike for the aesthetics of any brand or any particular piece, to deny that your Gang of Four is a fine set would be ridiculous, a bit like saying “The Beatles were crap”. Whether you like them or not, crap they were not. In the same way, the four watches you list are objectively fine pieces. CW undoubtedly passes the quality sniff test - I don’t have a C65 - I sadly failed to win one in the last review competition :( and I hold you, as one of the Mods, partly responsible for that :lol: - but I do have 3 C60s and a C7, all of which are extremely well engineered and solidly built. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

You also make some interesting comments about the AD experience. I’m a practical fellow, and while I recognise the value some place on the purchasing experience, I personally don’t value it as much as the premium it commands (each to his or her own, it’s just not for me). Likewise with the packaging - for me, the presentation box goes into a cupboard with its similarly forgotten predecessors, never to be seen again. I know it’s part of the “package”, but it irks me that most brands insist on pricing in expensive packaging, which I won’t ever use. I once sent CW an email suggesting they offer a travel case alternative (a lesson the majors can learn from the micro-brands, where this is commonplace), but they never replied.

My modest collection also includes 3 Oris, a Mont Blanc, a Magrette, a Sinn, a Zelos and a Tudor GMT. All house Swiss automatic movements, all are excellent quality and while I place a greater value on the Tudor (it cost more than my 4 CWs, as much as the 3 Oris pieces, and more than the other 4 put together), I don’t think the overall quality is vastly greater - yes it has an in house movement but that aside, does it feel ‘better quality” than the others? In my view, not obviously so, and I can’t honestly say what made me spend 3-4x the money to buy it (correction, it was this forum - there was a huge buzz during Baselworld this year, and this forum was no exception). Seriously though, I’m not sure where the 200% price difference comes from in purely mechanical terms, but I don’t regret buying it as it is one of my favourite watches. I wear it frequently (more often than most of the others as I travel frequently) and when it’s not on my wrist it sits happily in my winder alongside its proud companions.
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Ttf23 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:17 pm

Interesting thread. From someone that initially found CW through a trawl of eBay for modestly priced automatic watches, my initial, uninformed impression was that it seemed excellent value for money, compared with other brands.

Being (slightly) more informed now, I still hold that view (and a lot more CW watches). Over the last few months, think they are regularly putting out some great models, pushing the envelope in terms of design, with an increased price, but the vfm remains. £1k for the world timer and £3k for the C7 apex for example seem exceptional at the price point.

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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:35 pm

Some great replies, as I hoped. Thank you all. I think the following sums up my thinking.
0uatiOW wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:01 pm
Overall you have set out a strong case for CW being justified in self-identifying as a “luxury” brand. They perhaps don’t have the prestige of the Omegas, Breitlings, Rolexes, etc... etc.... but they do offer a product that stands proud in their company. I’m not saying CW quality matches that of all the big brands, but in my view, it is in the same league.
A few points:

JTC - I wasn’t concentrating so much on the visual aspects but you made some excellent observations.

Caller - Declan is indeed the showroom front man, but I know Chris likes to pop in if he is able.

As a CW fan (though not a Fanboy) I used to get upset if any new watch was not to my taste. Now that I understand my own proclivities rather better, I am perfectly happy to accept that certain types of watch are just not for me.

Future - it may well be that in the past the designs have jumped about a bit. Perhaps a narrower and more focused collection would have been advisable on occasions. But having spent a bit of time this year with the CW team, especially Mike, Chris, Adrian and Helen, I am acutely aware that they know where they are headed.
Steve
The half minute which we daily devote to the winding-up of our watches is an exertion of labour almost insensible; yet, by the aid of a few wheels, its effect is spread over the whole twenty-four hours.
Charles Babbage


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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:41 am

Essex Paul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:55 pm
Nice collection.... but you’re missing a Rolex. Collection would be complete!
:lol:
It has been considered, Paul. I started this Exit Watch thread a couple of months back.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50264&hilit=Exit#p739314

Still not sure though. I could get a couple of very nice trips for the money, and looking at this foursome does prompt me to reconsider.

There’s time to think about it.
Steve
The half minute which we daily devote to the winding-up of our watches is an exertion of labour almost insensible; yet, by the aid of a few wheels, its effect is spread over the whole twenty-four hours.
Charles Babbage


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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by nbg » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:05 am

A good post Steve. To help stimulate discussion, I thought that rather than do a similar comparison between a couple of my CWs and a few of my non CWs, I would take a different approach re. the question “how is CW doing?”

The most recent CWs that I have are the current version, but previous logo, C60 Trident Pro 600 and C60 Trident GMT 600. However I have handled the C1 Grand Malvern PR, so am aware of the great improvement in the cases that CW now produce, with the C65 Diver and GMT being good examples.

I thought that I would approach this by posing the question “how close in quality does someone expect CW to be when compared with watches costing several times more?”

A few price comparisons of familiar watches, all relate to steel watches on bracelets:

CW
C60 Trident Pro 600 - £725
C60 Trident GMT 600 - £940
C65 Trident Diver - £760
C65 Trident GMT - £960

Tudor
Black Bay 58 - £2,560
Black Bay GMT - £2,790
North Flag - £2,640

Omega
Speedmaster Moonwatch - £3,520
Seamaster Diver 300 - £3,600
Seamaster Aqua Terra - £4,080

It has often been stated by CW that a key part of their business model is to set RRP at 3 times the costs of production, making the observation that a typical Swiss made luxury brand RRP would be circa 10 times costs of production or upwards. I was going to include a quote from the CW website to this effect, as I know that I have read it many times, but couldn’t find it.

Using the above metrics and working back from RRP would appear to indicate the the costs are not poles apart. Even closer, if one makes a not unreasonable assumption that Omega RRP ends up at above 10 times cost.

So if the costs are similar, shouldn’t one expect the quality of the final output to be similar?

A bit simplistic perhaps, but food for thought!

How close similar items (whether watches, cars, audio equipment or wine etc) are in terms of quality is, as you say, often very subjective and we all have a sweet spot where as individuals we view the law of diminishing returns kicking in, relative to cost. That will be different for each of us. I know that as far as watches that I own are concerned, I believe that there is a discernible difference in quality between a few, that has lead me to buying them and still seeing value in the price differences.

However when I look upwards at much higher price points, I do generally find it difficult to see the value proposition in most.

I would also like to highlight one key sentence of your OP:
“I can only comment on watches I have handled and lived with and, really, that's all any of us can do.”

A very valid point, that many would do well to bear in mind. Yes it is easy enough for someone to make a valid observation that they don’t like the particular look of a watch. However it is somewhat more difficult to make a valid judgement of quality/cost comparisons without having handled a watch a few times.

Neil
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:23 pm

A fascinating and thoughtful response, Neil.

What is always interesting to see in the field of watch wearing, buying and collecting is how rapidly people’s tastes, aspirations and priorities seem to evolve.

There are certainly pointers to the discernible value of watches in the materials and manufacturing processes used especially in the higher end sector, but the figures you quoted give food for thought in terms of the overall markups in the traditional AD chain.
Steve
The half minute which we daily devote to the winding-up of our watches is an exertion of labour almost insensible; yet, by the aid of a few wheels, its effect is spread over the whole twenty-four hours.
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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by Essex Paul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:23 pm

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:41 am
Essex Paul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:55 pm
Nice collection.... but you’re missing a Rolex. Collection would be complete!
:lol:
It has been considered, Paul. I started this Exit Watch thread a couple of months back.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50264&hilit=Exit#p739314

Still not sure though. I could get a couple of very nice trips for the money, and looking at this foursome does prompt me to reconsider.

There’s time to think about it.

You’re right Steve, also they’re silly money nowadays. For the same money holidays and more CW’s can be bought, although a pre-owned Explorer may be a good bet. Lovely watch.
I’m certainly looking at obtaining more lower budget watches and CW offers that luxury and style with an easy to reach budget.
I wouldn’t swap my 2 Rolexes for the world but I’m stopping there although a Lotto win would change my mind. :lol:

Either way a cracking collection you have there Steve. :clap:

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Re: How is CW doing? A personal view.

Post by albionphoto » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:58 pm

I don't have any of the watches that AVO used to start this thread. I do, however, have a C60 Trident SH21 and a C60 Trident 600 with an ETA. I have often thought of comparing these to my Omega Seamaster SMP (previous generation). There is no doubt in my mind that the CWs are the equal of the Omega in terms of build quality. The lack of skeleton hands is also an advantage. The overall design isn't quite there aesthetically but the functionality and build quality of the CWs is amazing.
They don't stack up quite so well against the new Seamaster (Zr02 dial) and it will be interesting to see how the C60 Mk III stacks up.
In terms of what you pay for what you get then CW are up with the best. Ignoring price you'd still have to consider them to be up with the best.
I posted that an Omega manager wondered how CW managed to sell a $10,000 watch (C7 Apex) for $3,500. Well it seems the pattern of CW hitting abpove its weight goes on and long may it continue.
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