Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by Caller »

I don't think it's about screwing CW for money. It's surely all about Jaguar asserting it's right to protect what it believes is it's property.

It's obvious there have been discussions between the two parties, presumably via their respective lawyers, but that a solution hasn't been agreed. From CW's statement, they are denying any wrong doing and clearly did not want nor expect this matter to go to Court. So I would imagine Jaguars decision to do so is more about turning the screw, as a tactic to force a resolution, rather than an end in itself. Pure speculation on my part. But going to Court costs and can be a lengthy process and I would imagine Jaguar would have investigated CW's financial position (company and directors).

The subject of CW's LE's and tenuous links to the product they were 'celebrating' has been discussed in some depth on here and as stated above, they have run into trouble in the past through doing so. Am I right in thinking that recent such releases have been where there has been an official tie-in - for example with Morgan?
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by Pipesmoker »

The biggest surprise to come out of this story is the distinct lack of lawyers in the ranks of the forum!!
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by Markornot »

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Rare-C ... SwLq5asB1n

Hmmm..I wonder if Ferrari might get next in the queue....
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by Anthony_Ferrari »

Markornot wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:02 am https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Rare-C ... SwLq5asB1n

Hmmm..I wonder if Ferrari might get next in the queue....
i would have expected them to have already set their lawyers on CW if there was an issue. Ferrari are famously litigious about their brand.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by tempusmaximus »

Article from Watchpro ....

http://www.watchpro.com/jaguar-alleges- ... ype-watch/

Apologies , it seems the article has already been posted .
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by H0rati0 »

I get the impression that most people think that CW are bang to rights here. I am not so sure.

1. Reading between the lines it would seem that CW had taken legal advice and were sure of their position (though with lawyers and the courts one can never be 100% sure) previous to or at least during discussions with Jaguar.

2. They handled the Beckett's situation (2010) by desisting, surely they would have learnt any lessons?

3. Perusing the Trademarks database, as Guy had mentioned shows a Jaguar "D Type" trademark (without hyphen) that pre-existed CW's "C70 D-Type" in 2014 but note that it DOES NOT cover watches.

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcas ... U001170588

Jaguar then appear to have retrospectively registered "D-Type" with hyphen to cover watches with effect from December 2014 ie after CW's first usage in August 2014.

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcas ... U013157541

4. That is contentious and certainly casts new light on why Jaguar did not act four years ago.

Where this gets murky is that the complaint specifies the "C9 D-Type" and timing from 2014 which seems to inaccurately lump the C70 D-Type (from 2014) with the C9 LE (from 2016) thus straddling Jaguar's registration of the "D-Type" trademark for watches which in theory CW could have registered first and in any case could claim previous copyright for a watch. Not sure how CW's reference to Jaguar would affect that though.

Finally, whatever the rights and wrongs, if Jaguar does win cleanly, any damages would have to be assessed by the Judge and it is difficult to see any sum awarded being an existential threat to CWL. This appears to be a storm in a tea cup and one has to question Jaguar's motives and actions even if CW themselves were not quite as pure as the driven.

Will be interesting to see what happens but probably a nothing burger.

nik

ps note that Jaguar have today announced three day week working due to slumping demand.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by nbg »

^^^^ Nik are you a lawyer or Barrister with Professional expertise in Trademarks and IP?

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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by Caller »

H0rati0 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:22 pmFinally, whatever the rights and wrongs, if Jaguar does win cleanly, any damages would have to be assessed by the Judge and it is difficult to see any sum awarded being an existential threat to CWL. This appears to be a storm in a tea cup
I agree about damages and I don't think that's the issue here. I disagree about it being nothing more than a storm in a tea-cup. It's obviously serious enough for Jaguar to be pursuing this matter with vigour.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by H0rati0 »

nbg wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:13 pm ^^^^ Nik are you a lawyer or Barrister with Professional expertise in Trademarks and IP?

Neil
Nah, just several years experience enmeshed in the (mostly civil) legal system. Cannot recommend, but I do know my way around and how it works. It will not be pleasant for either side.

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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by H0rati0 »

Caller wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:16 pm
H0rati0 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:22 pmFinally, whatever the rights and wrongs, if Jaguar does win cleanly, any damages would have to be assessed by the Judge and it is difficult to see any sum awarded being an existential threat to CWL. This appears to be a storm in a tea cup
I agree about damages and I don't think that's the issue here. I disagree about it being nothing more than a storm in a tea-cup. It's obviously serious enough for Jaguar to be pursuing this matter with vigour.
Who can say what the motives on both sides are?

I have known a company to sue even when they were advised they would certainly lose at trial. The matter did end up at trial and they did indeed lose, but It suited them to delay another, much more serious matter that could not be resolved until the outcome of the suit and there was always the possibility that they could outspend the other party since they were a much bigger company.

Damages are more or less the only remedy in the civil system and any damages are likely to be small since the money amounts in question are small, sales of 55 watches? Other remedies in the civil system such as an injunction to stop selling are long past sell by and CWL seem to believe they have a defence strong enough to risk trial. Bluffing when facing deep pockets is suicide. But a long way to go before that, years to get a case to trial in the UK these days - if it were to go that far which is unlikely as costs will far exceed possible damages and the courts will apply proportionality.

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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by gwells »

sometimes it's enough for a company like jaguar to set precedent. allowing it to go unchallenged sets a bad precedent and emboldens other potential trademark infringement (not to mention potentially weakening your future claims). challenging it, even if your financial reward seems minimal, at best, sets a precedent going forward that other infringement possibilities will be challenged and may deter others from doing the same.

i can't say that jaguar will win this, it's not even my legal system (beyond me not being a lawyer, i.e., IANAL), but if part of your business model includes selling licensing rights to your IP, you'd better be sure to protect it whenever it's violated. and i've seen big companies go after very small fish (think Disney going after some small etsy seller), so going after a company like CWL makes complete sense if you think they're violating your IP.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by 0uatiOW »

gwells wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:29 pm sometimes it's enough for a company like jaguar to set precedent. allowing it to go unchallenged sets a bad precedent and emboldens other potential trademark infringement (not to mention potentially weakening your future claims). challenging it, even if your financial reward seems minimal, at best, sets a precedent going forward that other infringement possibilities will be challenged and may deter others from doing the same.

i can't say that jaguar will win this, it's not even my legal system (beyond me not being a lawyer, i.e., IANAL), but if part of your business model includes selling licensing rights to your IP, you'd better be sure to protect it whenever it's violated. and i've seen big companies go after very small fish (think Disney going after some small etsy seller), so going after a company like CWL makes complete sense if you think they're violating your IP.
I agree - I think it’s about protecting IP and reputation as in “You can’t use my name without my permission”. Waiting 4 years seems a bit pointless though. It’s not always about the money (didn’t Harrods shut down a street vendor because his umbrella had the same colours and a similar script a few years back?). Even if they get all CW’s money, it not likely to be material to Jaguar (hmmm, just found the March 2017 annual Accounts in a prior thread...).

What’s confusing to me is how a company which must know the value of its own brand, can decide to leverage another company’s brand without permission. They must have taken legal advice at the time.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by gwells »

0uatiOW wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:09 pmWaiting 4 years seems a bit pointless though.
thing is, we have no idea what transpired between CWL and Jaguar in those 4 years. there may have been plenty going on behind the scenes.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by 0uatiOW »

True - something smells. There’s obviously a backstory here, hoping we find out what it is.
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Re: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

Post by CBMVic20 »

Jaguar should spend more time working on making their cars reliable instead of chasing lawsuits to line the pockets of spiv lawyers.

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