CW Preview: The Twelve

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
User avatar
iain
Trusted Seller
Trusted Seller
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:13 pm
CW-watches: 1

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by iain »

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:57 am All this makes me wonder: at what point does a style of watch cease to be an homage to an illustrious forerunner and become a genre in its own right?

The cynic in me would say only when the name on the dial permits watch snobs to allow it to be.
These users thanked the author iain for the post (total 3):
Amor Vincit Omnianbgtikkathree
Iain’s Law: Any discussion on the Christopher Ward forum, irrespective of the thread title or subject matter, will eventually lead to someone mentioning the Bel Canto if the thread continues for long enough.
User avatar
Amor Vincit Omnia
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 33793
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:34 pm
CW-watches: 4
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

@iain There may be something in that.

For example, I understand that the first water resistant watches with lots of lume and a rotatable bezel appeared in the early 1950s. Blancpain and Rolex?

Now that the world and his/her/its/their wife/husband/civil partner/concubine produces “dive watches” in numbers to rival the hordes of Genghis Khan and shades to outdo “Crystal Tipps meets My Little Pony”, isn’t it slightly specious still to refer to them as homages? Surely it’s a genre by now.
Steve
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time


Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
User avatar
iain
Trusted Seller
Trusted Seller
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:13 pm
CW-watches: 1

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by iain »

@Amor Vincit Omnia

Seeing as you mentioned them Steve, let’s go with dive watches which I agree is a genre and not a homage. However when a company like Omega releases a three hand watch with a date, rotating bezel, steel bracelet, stick markers, and big lume filled hands. Everyone refers to it as dive watch and not a homage. This is fair as the planet ocean is clearly not a homage to the Rolex or Blancpain, it’s a dive watch in its own right.

When a different company releases a three hand watch with a date, rotating bezel, steel bracelet, a mix of stick and blob markers, and arrow shaped hands. The internet refers to it as a Blancpain homage and not a dive watch. This is because the bezel looks similar, however the hour markers are different and one has 3,6,9,12 numbers and the other not. Why is this not just a generic dive watch, why does it have to be a homage? If it’s down the look of the bezel, is the early planet ocean bezel that different to the one on the older submariner?

I can’t think of a recent watch that was so different that it started a whole genre and a host of other brands rushing to release something similar in recent times. Yes there have been watches that were different, but no one else then went out to copy, or be inspired by them.
These users thanked the author iain for the post:
rkovars
Iain’s Law: Any discussion on the Christopher Ward forum, irrespective of the thread title or subject matter, will eventually lead to someone mentioning the Bel Canto if the thread continues for long enough.
User avatar
missF
CW Forum Poet Laureate
CW Forum Poet Laureate
Posts: 11866
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:59 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: Edinburgh

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by missF »

It takes a lot of words to explain an opinion on the word ‘homage’ :lol:
I think it’s an almost redundant word that’s used purely in a derogatory sense and it’s always a word that’s used to close down discussion. It offers a pointless narrow view of what the watch world is all about. It’s not truthful to any aspect of a company like CW, involved in a creative endeavour to work with influence from the past, see where current tastes lie, explore where their vision can offer ‘difference’ and therefore excitement to new buyers, look at different engineering ways to reach similar solutions and look at different design ways to create new solutions and new visual delight. Oh and explore the limits of modern manufacturing to produce a vision of quality that you aspire to. All watch companies that I respect are involved in the same endeavour.

‘CW are just a homage brand’ is a statement made around the forums here and there from time to time, but it’s a ridiculous statement - unless you qualify it by saying ‘so are the rest of them’.
These users thanked the author missF for the post (total 2):
richtelrkovars
Ash_Ketchum_007
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:44 am

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

I think people are right to express their concerns with CW. I wouldn't brand them as "watch snobs".

I've been following CW closely ever since the Bel Canto. I have to say that I've been disappointed by the releases since then.

I've heard so much talk about CW moving upmarket. Who are the players in that segment? You have the likes of Tag and Oris. Now, how many homage "acquisitions" have you seen when people talk about these brands? Is it just because of the name on the dial? Brands like Tag and Oris have a non-bloated catalogue that consists of watches that are more than just "twists" of other designs from other brands. Even their bracelets don't closely follow designs from other brands. You may have the occasional similarity but that doesn't define their brand.

Let's talk about the integrated bracelet argument. I saw Laureto being used as a defence. Why was the Laureto the first thing that came to mind when talking about Royal Oak homages? Do people see what is happening here? People haven't ignored it. The Laureto constantly gets called out for being a homage. At the same time, the bracelet design is simple and super effective at selling the one piece ornament look that is the ethos behind the integrated bracelet watch style. It would look drastically different from the royal Oak if it simply dropped the octagon. Maurice Lacroix gets flak for being an homage too. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with homages but it is disappointing to see CW's potential being wasted on these.

Do the likes of Moser, Czapek, Patek, IWC, VC (Overseas and 222), Chopard, Bvlgari get called out for making homages? Ignoring the "name on the dial", can the "non-snobs" point out how the Streamliner, Antarctique and Octo Finnisimo are Royal Oak homages? How is the upcoming Twelve closer to these than the Royal Oak? Does the new CW NEED screws on the bezel? Judging by the teaser, it may even have aligned fake screws. I appreciate the effort but.....why? Remove the screws and orient the bezel in such a way that the points of the polygon align with the indices. Voila, you suddenly have something that looks somewhat different from everything out there. And this is just in case they absolutely want to have a 12 sided figure. They could have easily created another bezel. Why does the bracelet look like a PRX bracelet? All of these is the problem. It's not impossible to create something different but CW decided to pick elements from 4-5 watches. This is why people don't understand the "we thought differently" claims. This is why you see "cringe" being thrown around.

The sealander for example looks very close to a Roles OP. There are hundreds of ways to create a three link bracelet but they choose something that looks close to Rolex. Even the older version of CW's bracelet had a bigger mid-link. The ones I see recently have similar proportions to Rolex. And the indices. There are so many ways to create different indices but CW uses something that is so close to Rolex. Why? The Carrera is a 3 hander that doesn't look like an OP. The ProPilot X doesn't look like an OP. Sealander looks like an OP. Do people realise that it isn't just because of the name on the dial? The Sinn 556 doesn't look like an Explorer. It is a black dialed field/sports watch and the similarity ends there.

There is so much to like about CW and I heard that they pay close attention to their fans. But it seems that criticism isn't allowed and the gatekeeping is just too strong. The homage criticism isn't just because of snobbery. After the Bel Canto, I was genuinely excited for CW's potential in the entry level luxury category. They have what it takes to be a strong player that competes with Oris, Tag and Longines. I really want them to shed the homage tag and move into the next segment and I actually expected the Twelve to be refreshing. ATM, my hopes are dashed but I still believe that they can do something different.
Superthrust
Senior
Senior
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:46 am

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Superthrust »

I think it's ironic to hold swiss watches as the original and genuine article and everything else a homage when the swiss industry itself started by making fakes, then to 'homages' then to their own identity of sorts. Swings and roundabouts really.

At the end of the day, if someone makes a nicer, more affordable watch that's 'similar' to someone else's, then the new one deserves attention and the old one needs to catch up, that's why many French and British brands died out long ago after all!
User avatar
Amor Vincit Omnia
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 33793
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:34 pm
CW-watches: 4
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

@Ash_Ketchum_007

Welcome. Do please visit the Member Introduction section and tell us about yourself. 8)
Steve
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time


Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
User avatar
asqwerth
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:47 am
CW-watches: 8

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by asqwerth »

May I ask if those throwing the "homage" label around have seen the whole watch (eg. in the preview)?

If no, maybe wait for the whole thing to be unveiled before passing judgement?

If yes, I think the rule is no discussion on this forum until it's fully released.
These users thanked the author asqwerth for the post (total 3):
tikkathreeajax87Thunder1
C5As~FLE12R~W61~C60GMT~FLE15~SC
Orion33/Tetra2~BallEH~Montblanc~Tudor BB36~Archimede36~Damasko~Revue T~BremontSolo37~MJW
Vintage~Bulova23~Polerouter~Wittnauer~Longines~Omega~Soumar~Eterna~Gruen

Quartz~Matisse~FLE17~Ebel~Citizen
User avatar
missF
CW Forum Poet Laureate
CW Forum Poet Laureate
Posts: 11866
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:59 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: Edinburgh

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by missF »

Ash_Ketchum_007 wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:30 am But it seems that criticism isn't allowed and the gatekeeping is just too strong.
Well I disagree with this - you’ve just made a long a considered post about homages in general and CW in particular with a viewpoint that’s wide ranging across the industry along with pages of other posts - some on the same topics and some about a watch that hasn’t even been released yet. :D
There’s nobody gatekeeping here and plenty of criticism. Other Brands are equally discussed. And usually in a good open - minded way. It’s a forum of watchies- not a fan club.

Anyway - welcome! I enjoyed reading your first (?) post. Hope you’ll be around for more :D
JAFO
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 4490
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by JAFO »

Assuming the twelve is a polygon case shape probably with an integrated bracelet, I expect the usual CW attention to good value will assure it receives a warm welcome in a few days time.

Whatever it actually is, I will look forward to the reveal, as I missed the preview.
These users thanked the author JAFO for the post:
Thunder1
User avatar
A1soknownas
Senior Guru
Senior Guru
Posts: 632
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:40 pm

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by A1soknownas »

If CW do something it is lazily called a homage by the haters. If a higher price point established brand do it, it is seen as their version...or a dive into their historical catalog whether the original was a homage or not.

CW can't win, nor can they reinvent the wheel. I personally think it is a good thing if they take influence from 5 other design cues and take those best elements into one offer at an industry busting price point.
These users thanked the author A1soknownas for the post:
albionphoto
User avatar
nbg
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 13151
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:43 pm
CW-watches: 14
Location: UK

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by nbg »

@Ash_Ketchum_007
Interesting that you have mentioned Moser and Czapek. The Streamliner and Antarctique are my two favourite watches of the integrated sports watch genre.

That’s favourite as in liking them, not favourites as in owning them! Both are unfortunately beyond my pay grade. :(

However as they become more popular (it wasn’t long ago when decent discounts were readily available for watches from these two brands) I think that the prices, both RRP and preowned, will be pushed even further.

The designer of the Antarctique is clearly a very talented person. It would be great if CW had a similarly talented designer on their books. :)

The bracelet on the Streamliner is apparently very comfortable. In many ways reminiscent of the lobster bracelets from many years ago.

Neil
Other watch forums of interest:
TZ-UK
User avatar
jkbarnes
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 7852
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 8:39 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by jkbarnes »

Ash_Ketchum_007 wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:30 am …But it seems that criticism isn't allowed and the gatekeeping is just too strong.
What?! This forum is chock full of criticism of CW and their watches. And if the gatekeeping was strong, as you say, I imagine your post would have been deleted.

And for what it’s worth, I find your post to be more trolling than criticizing.
These users thanked the author jkbarnes for the post:
tikkathree
Drew
User avatar
richtel
Trusted Seller
Trusted Seller
Posts: 1794
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:10 pm
CW-watches: 8
Location: Cotswolds

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by richtel »

Have we seen you before Ash?
These users thanked the author richtel for the post (total 2):
jkbarnestikkathree
Rich

"The bad news is that time flies. The good news is that you're the pilot."
User avatar
jmarchitect
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 4420
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:00 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: sunny south coast, UK

Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by jmarchitect »

Is it possible that CWL have delved into their back catalogue and reworked the C20 to bring the integrated bracelet and slim case up to date? A homage of a homage… of a homage? Whatever it is, it’ll be splendid even if it doesn’t sing to everyone.
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post