Grammar
Grammar
A few months back I bought my first CW - a C11 black manta. I'm very happy with the watch and service from CW. But one thing is bothering me. The case back has the text "pervenio pro astrum". It's years since I've done any Latin, but that text does not sound right to me! So I took out my old grammars and dictionaries and I still think it makes no sense. And to triple check I sent a message to a Latinist I know, and he also thought it was nonsense. So do you think the people at CW will listen to criticism of their Latin grammar if I send them an email about it? Or is there some historical reason for an ungrammatical text on the watch?
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Re: Grammar
We gave this one 6 of the best over 18 months ago.
You are right.
It is wrong.
I'm not going to go though it all again, but if you want to read the explanation:
http://www.christopherwardforum.com/vie ... t=pervenio
You are right.
It is wrong.
I'm not going to go though it all again, but if you want to read the explanation:
http://www.christopherwardforum.com/vie ... t=pervenio
Steve
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer
Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer
Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
Re: Grammar
What a fantastic thread! Thank you for the link. And my apologies for doing the forum newbie mistake and not searching back far enough - but in my defence I did search some way back through the C11 posts to see if it had been mentioned.
One question, since you obviously know much more Latin that I do. Why is the Greek loan word used instead of e.g. sidus? Because in constructing that phrase I would have used "ad sidera" because sidera means a group of stars and isn't a Greek loan word (as far as I can tell). So when should one use "ad astra" and when "ad sidera"?
One question, since you obviously know much more Latin that I do. Why is the Greek loan word used instead of e.g. sidus? Because in constructing that phrase I would have used "ad sidera" because sidera means a group of stars and isn't a Greek loan word (as far as I can tell). So when should one use "ad astra" and when "ad sidera"?
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Re: Grammar
Joaquin,
As Steve teaches latin, we bow to his superior knowledge.
As Steve teaches latin, we bow to his superior knowledge.
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Re: Grammar
I do like a nice intellectual debate on a Sunday morning, before I resign myself to more mundane tasks!josquin wrote:What a fantastic thread! Thank you for the link. And my apologies for doing the forum newbie mistake and not searching back far enough - but in my defence I did search some way back through the C11 posts to see if it had been mentioned.
One question, since you obviously know much more Latin that I do. Why is the Greek loan word used instead of e.g. sidus? Because in constructing that phrase I would have used "ad sidera" because sidera means a group of stars and isn't a Greek loan word (as far as I can tell). So when should one use "ad astra" and when "ad sidera"?
In answer to the first question, type in "Pervenio" in the search facility...
Now, much more interesting, let's consider the THREE words the Romans had for star...
1. sidus: from what I can gather, Romans seemed to use this to refer to constellations and the night-sky in general, so it would be good in the context of reaching for the stars.
2. astrum: as you correctly state, derived from the Greek άστρον (astron), it has always been used poetically and, of course, has given us some very important coined words that we use frequently.
3. stella: seemed to refer to particularly prominent stars and planets.
While the modern Romance words étoile, estrella &c. are derived from stella, astr- has always been the go-to prefix for poets. Racine, the French poetic dramatist, for example, always referred to "les astres".
Interestingly, the use of "sidereal" seems confined to science.
I'm sure there are plenty of examples out there that contradict the above, but it just goes to show how convoluted and multi-layered language can be. Yet another reason why I love linguistics!
Steve
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer
Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
Linguist; retired teacher; pilgrim; apprentice travel writer
Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. (Max Ehrmann)
Re: Grammar
So would "Pertineo ad sidera" then be the correct form of "reach for the stars"? But what's that thing with the 2515 squadron that AVO refences to in his earlier post on this topic? Is there a reason for why they used the wrong Latin grammar?