Interesting thought about expensive watches

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joerattz
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Interesting thought about expensive watches

Post by joerattz »

I was just looking at a watch on craigslist.com. It was a Rolex replica for about $150 US:

[LINK REMOVED]

It even comes with a (the) green hologram sticker. I have no idea how close this replica's green hologram sticker is to the real thing, but it made me think.

My first thought was "Wow, they are even counterfeiting the hologram sticker now. What's next?" Then I thought, how much could it cost to counterfeit a hologram sticker? You can find hologram kids' toys for a dollar. I have seen some DVD's that have a hologram on the cover. The DVD was about $15 US...how much of that was the hologram? It couldn't have been much.

That lead me to the thought...is it reasonable that a cheap sticker would be the evidence that an expensive watch is authentic? Shouldn't the watch itself be that evidence? It just doesn't make sense that it is the $1 hologram sticker that proves that the $5000.00 watch is genuine. Something is wrong with that! If you can't tell looking at a $5000.00 watch that it isn't a $150.00 watch, then have I got some stuff to sell you! Don't worry, it will be authentic. The official toothpic accompanying it will prove it! :D :D :D :D :D
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Post by Hans »

Joe, I hope you don't mind, but I removed the link, selling fake watches is a criminal act in a lot of countries, including mine, and I personally dislike them. And believe me, if you handle one of these $100 replica's, you can tell the difference, although they are getting better. But the most important part, the movement, cannot be compared with the original Rolex-movement.
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Post by joerattz »

Hans wrote:Joe, I hope you don't mind, but I removed the link.
No, of course not.
Hans wrote: Selling fake watches is a criminal act in a lot of countries, including mine, and I personally dislike them. And believe me, if you handle one of these $100 replica's, you can tell the difference, although they are getting better. But the most important part, the movement, cannot be compared with the original Rolex-movement.
These watches position themselves as replicas though. Is that illegal? I don't know the legality of this. They pitch the items as replicas so you can put your authentic watch away in a safe place, but still wear something that looks just like it. I mean, we all know that is hogwash. We all know what they are really about. However, it of course depends on the person buying it. It is totally possible I could just buy one because I like the way it looks with no intent to ever deceive anyone.

There was another thread on here before where some of us talked about someone, like CW, creating watches that look like some of the classic watches. From talking to Chris, I know it is not his thing to copy anyone, so I don't see him doing it, but there are some of these expensive watches that I really like the look of and wouldn't mind having a watch to resemble it....closely. Now, because I have integrity, I don't want the watch to say IWC or whatever...I would like for the watch to have the real company name that made it. Because of this, I can imagine there are some people that might buy one of these because they like the way the Rolex looks and for $150, they can have one. Heck, I even think the gold one for sale on the same site looks pretty sharp. Perhaps in person it wouldn't though.

Concerning the quality, I read a comparison somewhere, perhaps TZ, that compared a Breitling to an ~$250 fake. Of course, just as you said, the movement was no comparison. But the rest of the watch was close. Some of the differences were even just differences, not differences in quality. I think it would be totally feasible to have made the fake good enough to completely match the genuine article with the exception of the movement. Buy a standalone Breitling movement and slap it in the fake at that point, and you would have a fake undetectable to just about anyone, at a significantly lower price. Ultimately, my point is that while you are correct that the fakes' movements aren't anywhere near the quality of the genuine articles, the rest of the watch *can* be. But, should even that be possible?
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Re: Interesting thought about expensive watches

Post by President »

joerattz wrote:I was just looking at a watch on craigslist.com. It was a Rolex replica for about $150 US:

[LINK REMOVED]

It even comes with a (the) green hologram sticker. I have no idea how close this replica's green hologram sticker is to the real thing, but it made me think.

My first thought was "Wow, they are even counterfeiting the hologram sticker now. What's next?" Then I thought, how much could it cost to counterfeit a hologram sticker? You can find hologram kids' toys for a dollar. I have seen some DVD's that have a hologram on the cover. The DVD was about $15 US...how much of that was the hologram? It couldn't have been much.

That lead me to the thought...is it reasonable that a cheap sticker would be the evidence that an expensive watch is authentic? Shouldn't the watch itself be that evidence? It just doesn't make sense that it is the $1 hologram sticker that proves that the $5000.00 watch is genuine. Something is wrong with that! If you can't tell looking at a $5000.00 watch that it isn't a $150.00 watch, then have I got some stuff to sell you! Don't worry, it will be authentic. The official toothpic accompanying it will prove it! :D :D :D :D :D
Clever people don't rely on a sticker, they look carefully at the whole package (lug holes, hang tag, box, description, seller information etc)
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Post by Hans »

I know for certain that it is illegal to make 'replica' watches in The Netherlands, and Europe as a whole for that matter, I don't know how it is in the rest of the world.

The visible outside of Rolex-replica's are getting better and better, the inside are cheap Chinese movents or plain ETA's most of the time. I have even seen simple ETA-movements with a Rolex crown etched on the movement, looks really silly.

I am certain that I could simply spot a fake Rolex GMT for example by only listening to the watch, the caliber 3135 makes a very specific sound!

Concerning the outside, it's all in the details, take the usage of material for example: Rolex uses 904L grade stainless steel, that will probably not be used by the replica manufacturers.
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Post by joerattz »

That's kind of my point, though perhaps obscurred by my telling. Isn't the hologram some sort of Rolex official insignia? Maybe I am wrong. But I have seen sales, probably TZ and ebay, where they specifically mention the green hologram. Because of that, I interpretted the sticker as an official Rolex thing to give guarantee that the watch is genuine. My point is why would that be the evidence to prove it in Rolex's (the company) own mind? What was their purpose for creating it?

Say I am a company, and I make the finest automobile in the land and it sells for $600,000.00. Should it be the nifty keychain that I include that convinces you it is genuine? What would make me, as the manufacturer, think to even do that? Seems like a bizare thought. I can see the board meeting now...

Gentleman, we have a problem. There are companies out there making fake copies of our car and selling them for $5,000.00 What are we going to do about it? Hey, I know...let's include a genuine sticker to prove its authentic!

Seems like a rather odd approach to the problem to me.
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Post by Terminator »

The replica debate is an interesting one. Yes it is illegal. There is no doubt about that. However does it affect revenues from the companies in question? Well I doubt it, in fact it might actually do them some good. I doubt it because a lot of the time the people who buy them will never actually buy the real thing, not ever. It does however raise even more the desirabilty & kudos of the real thing and helps promote the brand. It makes us all aspire to owning the real thing even though we may never do so. I suspect that many of these manufacturers actually turn an intentional blind eye to the goings on in the replica world. It is not like movie or music CD piracy. I can see how that severly affects revenue on these products. It affects them because 90% of us can afford to go out and buy them whereas £5000 watches are not going to fly off the shelves.

Software piracy is also a prime example of where it can be good or bad. Again cheap software is severly affected but expensive software is not ie Adobe Photoshop etc for the same reason that the masses will never buy it at £450 anyway. Some major manufacturers do acknowledge that in certain respects it can help them in the long run.

It is a difficult position. To portray a Replica as the real thing is wrong. That is fraud. However to sell it as a piece of " crap " although still wrong is not really fraud. I have only one " stunning " replica in my possession which is a Breitling Bentley with a Tourbillon dial and a Bezel encrusted with fake diamonds. It was given to me in a very round about way. God knows where it came from as I have never been able to find one similar on the net like it. I have found them with a similar dial but not with the diamonds and an automatic movement. However it is a fake. It does though make me aspire to have the real thing because it is a stunning replica and makes me realise how good the real thing must be. Within the next few years I am going to have one and that Replica made up my mind for me. So Breitling ultimately wins. Breitling is probably the most desirable replicated watch in the world right now and the standing of Breitling has never been so high right now and I suspect that some of the reason is down to the replicas. Rolex went through the same thing in the late 80,s early 90,s but now that a replica Rolex is not quite so fashionable is allowing the Kudos of other manufacturers to increase. Take Jacob for instance. Ugly though they are to me I only heard of them by people getting replicas. That to me has raised Jacob's standing because I had never heard of them until then. It is building their brand.

Perhaps even Chris and CWL would love to be in a position as to where their products are replicated. If that day ever comes then CWL has made it big time and Chris will know it.

:wink:
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Post by Hans »

The hologram is not the sole prove it is a genuine Rolex, it is just one of a series of measures Rolex has taken. Newer models also have a small laser-etched crown on the glas that is difficult to see with the naked eye. This laser-etched crown is also reproduced by the replica-manufacturers, although the replica-etches look a lot different most of the times.
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Post by joerattz »

Hans wrote:I know for certain that it is illegal to make 'replica' watches in The Netherlands, and Europe as a whole for that matter, I don't know how it is in the rest of the world.
I would have expected it to be trademark infringement at the very least, but that would be a civil action in my country, not criminal.
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