Symmetry v Balance

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Lavaine
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Lavaine »

I think the masters of balance and symmetry are the Germans. Nobody can create a balanced dial like Lange. They place such a high priority on it that the Lange 1 was designed by designing the dial first, then designing the movement to fit the dial layout. So much attention was paid to the design that the dial adheres to the Golden Ratio.
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by markee »

Lavaine wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:16 am I think the masters of balance and symmetry are the Germans. Nobody can create a balanced dial like Lange. They place such a high priority on it that the Lange 1 was designed by designing the dial first, then designing the movement to fit the dial layout. So much attention was paid to the design that the dial adheres to the Golden Ratio.
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Interesting observation. The first watch in particular is absolutely stunning. No vertical or horizontal symmetry but as you say, perfectly balanced. Now time for me to go and read up on the golden ratio....
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

markee wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:47 am [ Now time for me to go and read up on the golden ratio....
Basically, if you add two numbers together and the ration of the SUM to the LARGER number is the same as the ratio between the two numbers, that's the Golden Ratio. I think. It's a long number that starts with 1.61....

Mathematicians, please feel free to enlighten and correct!

It occurs quite a lot in nature and has been used often in art and architecture.
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by missF »

Fascinating info on the Lange 1
Things built around the golden ratio are supposed to be very pleasing to the eye - hence a whole era of artists used it as the basis for composition
watching you fail in your quest for a “one watch” has been great entertainment
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by SlowLoris »

The Japanese view this differently. Fukensei (part of Zen) is all about this subject. Whether it is an adequate explanation or excuse for the CW branding at 9 O'clock is another matter :-)

https://www.rnrcreative.co/release-jour ... s-fukinsei
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by missF »

^^ Thanks for the info on fukensei. Brings to mind the gravel gardens in some Japanese temples - asymmetrical yet balanced.

This thread is so interesting! :thumbup:
watching you fail in your quest for a “one watch” has been great entertainment
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Thermexman »

I now know why my belly sticks out, yet my bum doesn't.

I was designed by the Almighty, with the Golden Ratio in mind.
I've also been referred to as a classic example of Fukensei, on several occasions, although I may have miss heard that...
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by strapline »

I think I've seen a number of threads on this topic, and I think the matter of symmetry, balance, and proportion - along with movements - are what makes the bulk of watch enthusiasts tick (d'ya see what I did there). Symmetry, balance and proportion all relate to aesthetics, and a watch dial is a very visual thing. I think most of us are hardwired to look for and appreciate these qualities. The human face is one of the best examples that comes to mind; it's all about symmetry, balance and proportion. Lop off an ear, move the nose off centre, put the mouth on a cheek...you get the idea.

These qualities that are being discussed here are equally important when it comes to a watch case, and how we perceive it. Look how much stock we all put into case width, L2L, lug width and case height. The marriage of these proportions (balance) is pivotal to many of us. And then you have to weigh these proportions against your own individual wrist. Just a couple of mil can be a deal-breaker for many, if not all of us.

Put simply, symmetry and balance is at the heart of any well considered watch.

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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by markee »

SlowLoris wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:59 am The Japanese view this differently. Fukensei (part of Zen) is all about this subject. Whether it is an adequate explanation or excuse for the CW branding at 9 O'clock is another matter :-)

https://www.rnrcreative.co/release-jour ... s-fukinsei
:clap: :clap:
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

strapline wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:25 am The human face is one of the best examples that comes to mind; it's all about symmetry, balance and proportion. Lop off an ear, move the nose off centre, put the mouth on a cheek...you get the idea.
If Picasso had designed watches...
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by StrappedUp »

Thermexman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:19 am I now know why my belly sticks out, yet my bum doesn't.

I was designed by the Almighty, with the Golden Ratio in mind.
I've also been referred to as a classic example of Fukensei, on several occasions, although I may have miss heard that...
:lol: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Mikkei4 »

When, or if, we look for symmetry in a watch what do each of us include in our decision?

Dial only, what elements of the dial, dial and bezel, dial and bezel and crown plus any pushers?
From the comments so far there is already some conscious or sub-conscious restriction of what our eyes and brain include when deciding upon symmetry because, for example, some don’t consider a diver’s bezel.

Really, symmetry is only achieved by something like the Rolex OP where vertical symmetry is achieved because batons (not numbers) are used but horizontal symmetry is not achieved due to the Rolex coronet. Yet the Explorer could also be considered vertically symmetrical because the use of 3 and 9 creates it.

The Speedmaster has been used to show vertical symmetry with sub-dials at 3, 6 and 9 (sub-dials at 6, 9 and 12 – never) even though it has an asymmetrical case, although through clever design this is hardly noticeable or so slight that our eyes don’t see it or our brains ignore it. The Cartier isn’t quite truly symmetrical, due to the larger gaps around I, II and between the V and the date, but it appears to be so to most people viewing it.

Apologies up-front but I have to include the CW logo in this. Set aside whether or not you like the name at 9o’clock, it is a perfect example of ignoring symmetry and balance. In numerous Forum threads it has been posted that it is balanced by the date square but can a date square balance out 2 lines of un-equal length left- justified letters? On CW watches with day/date there is some balance but not otherwise.

So what of those watches such as the GO and first Lange and Sohne shown that are neither symmetrical nor balanced but work visually? On these watches each element is visually sufficiently strong for our eyes and brain to concentrate on each in turn and thereby not viewing all of the dial in 1 go.

All of this is IMO. We will have differing opinions and see watches in differing ways. None are right, none are wrong. I’ve not picked on or used other people’s watches or comments to criticise but only to state an alternative and personal view. So “Be gentle with me” :D
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by albionphoto »

Wabi-sabi and the fukinsei can be very helpful in terms of design in general.

https://www.presentationzen.com/present ... a-goo.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi ... 8Din%29%2C
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

Mikkei4 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:16 pm The Speedmaster has been used to show vertical symmetry with sub-dials at 3, 6 and 9 (sub-dials at 6, 9 and 12 – never) even though it has an asymmetrical case, although through clever design this is hardly noticeable or so slight that our eyes don’t see it or our brains ignore it. The Cartier isn’t quite truly symmetrical, due to the larger gaps around I, II and between the V and the date, but it appears to be so to most people viewing it.
I understand all of that. I think I probably just don't see it. Interesting, though.

I share your view on 6-9-12 subdials...just wrong to my eyes.
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Re: Symmetry v Balance

Post by robert75 »

Lavaine wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:16 am I think the masters of balance and symmetry are the Germans. Nobody can create a balanced dial like Lange. They place such a high priority on it that the Lange 1 was designed by designing the dial first, then designing the movement to fit the dial layout. So much attention was paid to the design that the dial adheres to the Golden Ratio.
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While its an interesting theory I will go out on a limb and say that many of the Lange designs are utter eyesores. Breguet have a similar problem with some of their complications. Its great to have a designer look at your watch design but when you forget the main principle of a watch is to tell the time then all the art and craft in the world is a bit pointless. The Lane 1 is a lovely design (apart from the date function Glashutte does better) but a watch where the time is minimalised to make way for a power reserve indicator is probably not the best choice nor when your watch dial looks like a smiley face.

It probably explains why a simple time and date watch is so popular and timeless or why say Patek have the Calatrava and Breguet the Classique and never deviate too far from the simple design. It perhaps also explains why so many people are put off by a date window at 4 (or worse 3.5) or where a date is squeezed in at 4 on a chronograph watch.