Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
- Serlo
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
I just found an interesting article about the development of the movement. It states that Meistersinger have been working with SH for a couple of years and that Johannes Jahnke, yes JJ, has also worked on the Paleograph, Meistersinger's single pusher chronograph. SH doesn't produce the components of the movements but gets them from Precitrame (affiliated to Rolex), and Concepto SA (assortiment). They "merely" assemble the watches and regulate them, but don't produce the components. The aim of this movement is to become independent from parts produces by the Swatch Group.
Jörg Bader gets mentioned here as well, but my abilities of translating an entire German text into English are limited. Maybe an English speaking guy (who speaks German and not the other way round like me) can do a better job here?
http://www.watchtime.net/nachrichten/me ... ircularis/
The bottom line it all comes down to is that JJ works with Meistersinger as well, and Meistersinger uses the same movement as the so-called CW in-house movement.
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Jörg Bader gets mentioned here as well, but my abilities of translating an entire German text into English are limited. Maybe an English speaking guy (who speaks German and not the other way round like me) can do a better job here?
http://www.watchtime.net/nachrichten/me ... ircularis/
The bottom line it all comes down to is that JJ works with Meistersinger as well, and Meistersinger uses the same movement as the so-called CW in-house movement.
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Andreas
Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
I suspect any confusion is all the fault of marketing speak!
SH & CWL are both now merged and therefore a part of CW Holdings
Therefore anything produced by SH is in-house to anyone else within CW Holdings (i.e. CWL)
It is not in-house to 3rd parties such as MS
but that doesn't stop them using it... they just can't claim it as their movement...
If SH made modifications for MS it still wouldn't be in-house, but it might be bespoke
Manufacturing is a mix of in / out as with virtually every product in the world now - a car is 'made' by the manufacturer - but components are most definitely outsourced - we stil see it as a Jaguar Land Rover / BMW / Ford etc. - even when they might have at times owned each other and therefore might have retained rights to components such as 4x4 tech / engines / etc.
Car manufacturers basically make shells and assemble everything else - still 'their car' though...
Alasdair
SH & CWL are both now merged and therefore a part of CW Holdings
Therefore anything produced by SH is in-house to anyone else within CW Holdings (i.e. CWL)
It is not in-house to 3rd parties such as MS
but that doesn't stop them using it... they just can't claim it as their movement...
If SH made modifications for MS it still wouldn't be in-house, but it might be bespoke
Manufacturing is a mix of in / out as with virtually every product in the world now - a car is 'made' by the manufacturer - but components are most definitely outsourced - we stil see it as a Jaguar Land Rover / BMW / Ford etc. - even when they might have at times owned each other and therefore might have retained rights to components such as 4x4 tech / engines / etc.
Car manufacturers basically make shells and assemble everything else - still 'their car' though...
Alasdair
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- Dancematt
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
Outsourced components is the opposite of inhouse.
Although to use the correct term CW claim it to be an in house calibre not in house movement which probably negates a lot of bull. So in effect it's never was an in house movement
Although to use the correct term CW claim it to be an in house calibre not in house movement which probably negates a lot of bull. So in effect it's never was an in house movement
I miss all the great things that may never be.
Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
Through reading a lot of the stuff flying around during the Bremont thing, I got the impression that if you designed the watch movement itself and all the parts, but outsourced the actual making of the parts, it could still be defined as in-house, but not "manufacture". The latter would describe watch movements that were designed AND made in-house.
So let's say SH had never merged nor had partnerships, but instead sold watches under their own watch label -- they would have their very own in-house movements, because they thought them up by themselves, made the plans, did all the R&D, assembly and testing. However, they could not be called a manufacture because they got sub-contractors to make the components to their own specifications.
I can't imagine anyone telling SH that their SH21 movement was not in-house in that scenario. We are after all not talking a firm that merely designs the aesthetics of the watch, but the innards. IP in the movement would be wholly theirs. The makers of the parts were more "factories" than anything else.
So let's say SH had never merged nor had partnerships, but instead sold watches under their own watch label -- they would have their very own in-house movements, because they thought them up by themselves, made the plans, did all the R&D, assembly and testing. However, they could not be called a manufacture because they got sub-contractors to make the components to their own specifications.
I can't imagine anyone telling SH that their SH21 movement was not in-house in that scenario. We are after all not talking a firm that merely designs the aesthetics of the watch, but the innards. IP in the movement would be wholly theirs. The makers of the parts were more "factories" than anything else.
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
They would still be a manufaturer under UK law - it is the creation of the sold product that defines the manufacturer - it matters not a jot if every single component is made by someone else as long as you created the design / ordered the components / assembled them...
so if I take a lego kit and put it together I am not a manufacturer - I am an assembly plant
but if I take lego bricks and make something from my own imagination, then I am a manufacturer...
so out-sourced components
in-house movement
no conflict in that.
Alasdair
so if I take a lego kit and put it together I am not a manufacturer - I am an assembly plant
but if I take lego bricks and make something from my own imagination, then I am a manufacturer...
so out-sourced components
in-house movement
no conflict in that.
Alasdair
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- scooter
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
From here me dear:asqwerth wrote:Scooter, where did you get the information about the Geneva strips and blued screws for the JH Mark3 movement ? Are there pics? Would love to have a look!
http://www.christopherward.co.uk/new-re ... s-mk3.html
Last picture.
scooter
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
Yet more smoke, yet more mirrors...
Can we see clearly through it all yet?!
Can we see clearly through it all yet?!
Ideal number of watches in your collection = current number of watches + 1...
Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
My excitement for cwl and the SH21 movement has declined as much as the exclusivity of the SH21 movement itself. for me in house movements hold value but so does the exclusivity of that movement. Of course quality for value is most important.
I do find it funny that the c9 5 day and the circularis are almost the same watch. Same case, same movement: cwl $2000, Ms $5000. I guess removing 2 hands, removing the date, removing the rotor, different dial text, different strap (hopefully alligator at least), and better decoration on the movement is worth $3k.
Personally i'm waiting to see cwl make an exclusive watch that defines them against their competitors as a watch brand that will last the test of time. Great examples would be the omega speedy pro moon watch, jlc reverso, Panerai cases, bremont cases, Rolex submariner, and Seiko skx/srp monster. I thought the SH21 was a great step in that direction. The SH21 is, now, a great step for cwl as a company, but not necessarily as a watch producer. I feel cwl is making great business decisions to ensure their future as a company but they have not yet made that stand out watch that is timeless.
I do find it funny that the c9 5 day and the circularis are almost the same watch. Same case, same movement: cwl $2000, Ms $5000. I guess removing 2 hands, removing the date, removing the rotor, different dial text, different strap (hopefully alligator at least), and better decoration on the movement is worth $3k.
Personally i'm waiting to see cwl make an exclusive watch that defines them against their competitors as a watch brand that will last the test of time. Great examples would be the omega speedy pro moon watch, jlc reverso, Panerai cases, bremont cases, Rolex submariner, and Seiko skx/srp monster. I thought the SH21 was a great step in that direction. The SH21 is, now, a great step for cwl as a company, but not necessarily as a watch producer. I feel cwl is making great business decisions to ensure their future as a company but they have not yet made that stand out watch that is timeless.
Lewis
Omega Speedmaster 1861
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
good points...Lewis wrote:...The SH21 is, now, a great step for cwl as a company, but not necessarily as a watch producer. I feel cwl is making great business decisions to ensure their future as a company but they have not yet made that stand out watch that is timeless.
Some companies are innovators some are consolidators - some (like Apple) go through phases of each...
I suspect that CWL are in the consolidator camp - originality in how they derive, but not full on innovators...
I think it is also very difficult to build a unique watch or even unique style now - companies like Nomos build an identity, but they do so through fully exploiting a very narrow design concept - yes it builds a feel for their watches, but it also restricts them hugely in terms of expansion - if they brought out the equivalent of a C60 dive watch it would be a surprising move...
When you have wide range like CWL it is difficult to build a feel for a CWL watch
will be interesting to see how they develop
Alasdair
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- Dancematt
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
They have their own dive watch, the Atlantic (refuse to call it the Ahoi! now), they made that category fit their mold of doing things not the other way around. Similarly Bell and Ross also did this to some extent as do Panerai.
CW'S identity has changed alot, I sometimes wonder if they got it right the first time round, watches like the C5 Aviator, original C8, C600 and C6 have far more identity than the clone war stuff that has come out since. These ideas were not perfect but we're a far more original base for tweaking later on than what they pump out these days.
Looking at Steinhart as the competition who starting off making Homages and are now slowly finding their own identity (slowly), CW are going in the opposite direction and blending into the background more and more (imo)
CW'S identity has changed alot, I sometimes wonder if they got it right the first time round, watches like the C5 Aviator, original C8, C600 and C6 have far more identity than the clone war stuff that has come out since. These ideas were not perfect but we're a far more original base for tweaking later on than what they pump out these days.
Looking at Steinhart as the competition who starting off making Homages and are now slowly finding their own identity (slowly), CW are going in the opposite direction and blending into the background more and more (imo)
I miss all the great things that may never be.
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
I feel pretty similar Damcematt, but I think it's no secret that CW are chasing volume as their investor backed business model dictates really. Therefore, they are more likely to chase the trends IMHO, rather than set them.
Not that there is anything wrong with that in itself of course, it's a business run how they see fit, and evidently a very successful one.
They have produced a few gems in my opinion in this post logo change era, (C900/Regulator to name two) but the new higher price points have them competing with some tough and established competitors.
They will always have new customers I'm sure, they appear quite progressive and exciting versus some competition, but the challenge is hanging on to them. I've lost count of the number of members on here who have built a massive collection of CW's very quickly, then gradually sold them all off as they see what else is out there.
People like me should be buying CW's, I want a C900, but I've just been burnt too many times in the QC department. Maybe I was unlucky, I'm not particularly fussy, but it makes me very wary of buying again.
Not that there is anything wrong with that in itself of course, it's a business run how they see fit, and evidently a very successful one.
They have produced a few gems in my opinion in this post logo change era, (C900/Regulator to name two) but the new higher price points have them competing with some tough and established competitors.
They will always have new customers I'm sure, they appear quite progressive and exciting versus some competition, but the challenge is hanging on to them. I've lost count of the number of members on here who have built a massive collection of CW's very quickly, then gradually sold them all off as they see what else is out there.
People like me should be buying CW's, I want a C900, but I've just been burnt too many times in the QC department. Maybe I was unlucky, I'm not particularly fussy, but it makes me very wary of buying again.
Ideal number of watches in your collection = current number of watches + 1...
- Kip
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
I think the CWL Harrison collection is a step in the identity direction. If you group these with the C5 style, it looks to be an emerging pattern in the Dress watch category.
Kip
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Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
I agree - the latest C9xx versions show (to me at least) the beginnings of a "house style". It will be tough, and maybe not even desirable, to carry that into other style segments.
Richard
Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
C9 are beginning to have a cwl identity. However an exclusive dial isn't enough. And now that's the only difference to the MS. that is why I was so excited when the SH21 first released in the c9 5 day. I thought cwl was a new case design away from a truly exclusive watch through and through. Now I feel like cwl is more on the goal of aligning with tissot instead of trying to be the Rolex of the internet.
Lewis
Omega Speedmaster 1861
Karl Falk Automatik black dial
C60 Trident Black bezel mk1 2nd gen logo (warranty swapped out my original charcoal bezel)
Seiko New Gen Orange Monster
Seiko Pogue-ish 6139-6009 resist notched
Omega Speedmaster 1861
Karl Falk Automatik black dial
C60 Trident Black bezel mk1 2nd gen logo (warranty swapped out my original charcoal bezel)
Seiko New Gen Orange Monster
Seiko Pogue-ish 6139-6009 resist notched
Re: Meistersinger Circularis - SH movement?
Really like the movement in that, hardly suprised an evolution of the movement has ended up here though
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