So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by jmarchitect »

Now that is what it is all about! Excellent post Clarky and one that I sat and read completely enthralled. Thank you very much. Best of luck in your studies.
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

Amazing, Clarky! Thank you for taking the time to explain and illustrate all that. It looks horrifically complicated but like most jobs I guess that when you've been doing it half a lifetime it comes naturally.

Kip, are we having a Post Of The Year vote this year? :D
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by akirk »

Fab post - really makes you realise that it is more than just adding in a new battery :D
and I am wearing the C20 today - so very appropriate!

makes me think though...
C20 - cost of buying it (presumably manufacture has to be at least the same if not more than service?) is c. £399
yet in a recent thread a Breitling service is £500

so what is the customer getting extra in that Breitling service? Are they genuinely a lot more complex to service?

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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Clarky »

Thanks for the kind comments everyone :D

It took quite a while to put it all together, especially as my computer is prehistoric and it takes forever to upload pictures off the camera and then the joy of photobucket adding a URL link (which needed deleting for every picture posted) to each IMG link ](*,)

I will try to answer your questions but I will have to do it one at a time as I am on my ipad and flicking back and forth between posts and photobucket where needed is like playing Russian roulette with cache wondering when it will clear what I have just typed before I have posted it....

Adatech wrote:A truly interesting read!

Can you answer a question: how does the automatic winding mechanism wind when the winding weight rotates both CW and CCW? I've seen that some movements only wind in one direction or the other, which makes sense -- but I've been trying to figure out how movements like the 2824 work both directions.

This is the gearing in the auto winding mechanism as it is fitted in the plate

Image
Image


With gears removed we can turn them over like so

Image
Image

Now the two gears (click wheels) to the left in the photos and diagrams below are each constructed of two parts, an upper and lower section. Upper gears in green and lower gears in blue

Image
Image

These upper and lower halves are locked or unlocked with one-way ratchets, depending on the direction of rotation of the upper section.
While both upper sections always rotate, the lower section rotates only on the LOCKED wheel. With the central rotor moving clockwise, only the right click-wheel is locked (the left lower wheel just free wheels). With the central rotor moving counterclockwise , only the left click-wheel is locked ( the the right upper wheel is free wheeling). This is the difference that allows the mechanism to utilise the rotor rotation in both directions.

Simples :lol:

PS. This is what jams up to cause the rotor to spin when you manually wind your watch. :thumbdown:
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Drmarkf »

This is a really great thread - many thanks for doing this!
Regards,
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by neolamp »

What a great read, very informative!
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by MiniMpi »

Thank you very much for writing this.
Excellent :)
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by cholmes »

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote:Kip, are we having a Post Of The Year vote this year? :D
My thoughts exactly- a post of the year if I ever read one. Wonderfully informative post and excellent photos. Thank you Clarky! :clap:
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Clarky »

asqwerth wrote:Thanks, Clarky. I was actually wondering about what servicing entailed, as I have to send many of my vintage watches for servicing. Obviously the cost of servicing is not a small amount.

Other than the potential difficulty in finding parts for old watches, what are other issues specific to servicing old watches?

Are old hand wounds generally easy and straightforward to service, as the movements seem to me to share a basic design (eg many have 17 jewels) ?

Hi asqwerth

Good question, without knowing what movement(s) it is hard to say, but and this is a big but that also applies to higher end movements over the mass produced entry level movements in that; to produce a movement that is able to keep time within greater tolerances you have to make it much more adjustable their for the skill needed to to set the movement up correctly is much greater and much more time consuming.

In the description of the service I very lightly brushed over what is required when it comes to the set up of the escapement, the balance wheel and balance spring as this is a topic that would probably take longer to write up on each component than the whole of the explanation of the basic service.

Modern entry level watches are able to keep reasonable time mainly due to running at a high beat rate of 28800 vph despite that they are relatively cheaply constructed of lower grade materials ( I am referring to the escapement and balance / balance spring mainly) compared to higher end watches (regardless of their vph) or even the low beat vintage watches that run at 18000 vph. This makes them simpler and cheaper to service.

Pocket watches normally run at say 18000 vph, they rest in you waste coat pocket and the only real influence to the balance wheel you have as the wearer is that the watch will normally sit in a hanging position with the crown up (and at a reasonably constant temperature) and any movement you make is likely to be a back and forward motion or put anotherway up and down on the center line of the balance pivot as opposed to adding or decreasing to the swing of balance wheel on its axis due to any rotational force on the watch from being on your wrist. So when you then put that 18000 vph movement in a wrist watch it now has to cope with a constant change of influence via gravity due to the ever changing position of you arm/wrist, plus you are much more likely to shock it by banging your wrist watch and the swinging movement of you arm all has an effect on the balances amplitude which needs to be controlled more accurately to continue to keep good time.

There are many ways to help all of that, one the easiest ways is to increase the frequency that the escapement and balance operate at, as by doing so a poorly set up watch can still keep reasonably good time as the duration of positional error is reduced by the shorter duration between impulses and any influence from the wear is reduced ie the lower frequencies that your arm moves around at, is less likely to get near to the frequency that will interfere with the escapement and balance.

On a cheap movement the balance wheel is normally of a solid construction and to poise the balance (remove a heavy spot on its rim, the same as balancing your car wheels) you have to remove very small amounts of material at the heaviest point to balance it ( this would have to be done if you replaced the balance staff for example). On a more expensive balance it would have poising screws ( poising screws are adjusted in or out of the balance rim to increase or decrease the weight at that point on the balance wheel) or weighting posts to which as the name suggests you add or remove small weights to correct the balance.
( these are not to be confused with inertia screws that are used on many Rolex and Omega balances to name a couple, that are used to speed up or slow down the balance wheel and adjust the daily loss/gain rate by winding them in or out in opposite pairs)

Most things on the balance and escapement are set at factory on cheaper movements so if something is broken you can just order a new part and it is already set to fit. On an older movement and higher grade movements the bits that are set in a modern movement need to checked and set up correctly.

For instance the pallet fork on a ETA 2824 the amount of side to side operational movement is set by solid banking walls as in the picture below

Image

Older movements and higher grade movements use banking pins that enable adjustment of the horn shake ( they are expensive to make compared with the use of banking walls)....
Image

which is the angle at which the impulse jewel enters pallets horns. Ever wondered why your watch has an uneven number of Jewels?? Most the movements jewels are in opposite pairs acting a bearings to the motion work but this the odd one out,
This little sucker here on the balance wheel
Image

Again unlike with modern entry level movements the guard pin shake needs to be checked and adjusted correctly.
This is the little pin that sticks out between the pallet horns and is the safty devise that stops any knock or vibration of the watch from unlocking the pallets out of time. It locks the pallet fork in position until the balance returns to its center position enabling the guard pin to pass in the passing slot. ( Thomas mudge the inventor of the lever excapemant didn't developed his escapement to include this fail safe feature, it took the Swiss to come up with it as well as the club teeth on the escapement that provide the impulse to the balance to enable it, amongst a couple of other things, to self start in motion)

Image
Image

Then there is the depth of the lock between the pallet stones and the escapement wheel. This is normally pre set on your pallets at factory but on an older or higher grade movement it may need adjusting.
Image

Which incorporates the run to banking ( which is some times incorrectly adjusted via the horn shake)

Image

Any adjustment must be done via moving the pallets in the pallet fork

Image


This all adds up to tighter control over every moving part in the movement to achieve isochronism which enables better time keeping at the sacrifice of the expense of setting the movement up, due to the time and skill involved to do so.

Edit reason: re wrote some of the descriptions so it made easier understanding (hopefully)
And put in correct horn pin diagram
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by grahamH »

Thank you,a really good read...
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Clarky »

scooter wrote:Brilliant post mate!

Written well, photographed excellently and very, very informative. Lance was correct about potential thread of the year and I will not forget this one.

This is apart from the fact that you need to be so skilled and have incredible eyesight and patience to deal with those iddy biddy little pieces.

You Clarky, are "The Man".

scooter
Cheers scooter :wave:

Robin CB wrote:Excellent post Clarky - a superb breakdown of the process. Many thanks :D

You say you have done a few BHI workshops - is this part of an ongoing development for you? Are you going for full BHI accreditation?
It is part of an ongoing development, I am trying to get through the distance learning course ( I work full time to pay the bills and feed my watch buying habit ) with the aim to end up with the full FBHI qualification to my name.
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by chrisjohnson »

Fantastic post. Thanks for taking the time to do this! Now a service seems very good value!
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by asqwerth »

Wow, wow, WOW!! :shock:

Thank you for your really detailed answer, Clarky!

The geek in me just LOVED it. I'll need to read it again though - still trying to wrap my brain around your pics and explanation of the guard pin, horn shake, impulse jewel, palette horns, etc. - it looks from your pics as if some high end/vintage movements didn't have a jagged-teeth escapement wheel of the kind we're used to seeing in the ETA 2824??

Not just a fantastic original post, but amazing reply posts as well!
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by Clarky »

asqwerth wrote:Wow, wow, WOW!! :shock:

Thank you for your really detailed answer, Clarky!

The geek in me just LOVED it. I'll need to read it again though - still trying to wrap my brain around your pics and explanation of the guard pin, horn shake, impulse jewel, palette horns, etc. - it looks from your pics as if some high end/vintage movements didn't have a jagged-teeth escapement wheel of the kind we're used to seeing in the ETA 2824??

Not just a fantastic original post, but amazing reply posts as well!

Your welcome, I did try to keep it short... ish.

The pictures are of a ETA 2836 and the diagrams are just of a generic Swiss tooth lever escapement (just like the ones found in an ETA 2824), don't read too much into them in terms of examples of higher end movements they are for explanation use only ( I wish I had photographic examples to share but sadly I don't :( ).
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Re: So your watch is due a service, what are you paying for?

Post by alphajet »

A great post Clarky, very informative, I have a few books on watch repairing but have realised I don't have the eyes or the patience for watchmaking. Well done a worthy candidate for post of the year as already expressed by other members. :thumbup:
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