Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

I came across this article this morning when I was searching for the Hodinkee article mentioned in the NYTimes:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/chane ... ered-watch

It's titled 'The Chanel Monssieur de Chanel and the evolution of the gendered watch.'
You can see maybe why I was interested to read it this morning given the topic of this thread. Unfortunately the article doesn't discuss the evolution of the gendered watch, but has a few things to say about gendered watches:

Conventional gender-binary and gender-specific design codes persist in watchmaking for a reason (or reasons: tradition for one, an accessible history of design languages for another, commercial considerations for yet another)



Let me take these apart from where I'm standing:
1. Tradition. Well, modern watchmakers are harking back to the 50s to take design cues for their latest watches - we don't need to harken back to 50s gender notions while we're at it.
2. Design Language. Designs have evolved for decades, along with design language. As several have pointed out, 'dress' watch is a term far more tenuous now than it used to be in the days of more defined social jewellery requirements. Those who use design language should avoid lazy nods to the past and get with how design language is being used by the people who are buying the watches.
3. Commercial considerations - this is the most tenuous reason for sticking with gendered watch sales pages. No-one's asking the industry for wholesale change in the watches being produced; simply that we move forward to describing them as watches, rather than men's or women's watches. So long as there is a market for small quartz watches with diamonds on they will continue to be made. Just let's scrape away at the idea that because I'm 'female', that this is what I'm after in a watch. This has to start with actually asking women out there what they want, and surprisingly as I find it, this conversation is really only starting in a recent few years. Feedback to the Hodinkee article suggested that many women feel disenfranchised in the face of the watch industry - heavy on men in CEO and design positions. But the voices are at least now being raised.
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

Thermexman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:06 pm It's going to be a real pain to have to scroll through all the teeny weeny, diamonte encrusted, Lady bangle, watches from now on, rather than being able to filter them out by selecting the "Men" tab! Just my tuppence worth.
You won't have to scroll through them, that's the thing. You want a 41mm watch - go scroll through the 41mm watches, without having to also scroll through the 47mm behemoths either
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

Thermexman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:06 pm
Also, at the risk of looking stupid, shut up at he back! What does GADA mean? I've read it twice on here today and I don't have a Scooby Doo!
Go Anywhere, Do Anything. Now you have a Scooby. :thumbup:
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by JAFO »

Searching websites is painful. I find eBay very good, especially for the number of items it manages. . Amazon is appalling. CW is not great. Often with any website the size ranges aren't what you want, and the price ranges aren't either.
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by tikkathree »

You're what? "Off to the beach"? Mind your fingers don't freeze orf!

Thank you for this hugely considered response and I will read your other links but it might be tomorrow... :thumbup: :thumbup:
missF wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:10 am So. I've been reading around this topic for a few months, and I thought I'd start with a paragraph that's purely my own opinion on the subject of gender in watches:


Oh but I roll my eyes :roll: at the received 'wisdom' that 'womens' watches are small, quartz and covered in diamonds. Does this represent what a majority of women want? Or is it that over time we just have to settle for what's on offer?
Oh but I roll my eyes when I face 'Men' and 'Women' tabs on sale sites, knowing that I'll click on both because I'm looking for a 36-38mm watch.
It makes me frustrated that I am told what I want and who I am by advertising that is sexist and portrays me by how I look and how attractive I am to men, rather than who I AM and what I DO. This is changing in recent years but slowly....


For anyone who is interested in the topic, this recent NYTimes article presents a brilliant summary of the discussions that have been going on in the last few years..
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/08/fash ... ender.html

'In the last few years' is the pertinent phrase here, and the one that really surprises me. Another article that's well worth a read is this Hodinkee one, that really set the watch world talking by all accounts. It really felt like this bust open the topic for discussion. Women felt on the back of the article that they were being consulted on what they want in watches for the first time in a long time (/ever??). I thought about posting this article on the forum at the time, but didn't. I didn't think it was a story that women don't feel comfortable being pigeonholed into a very narrow category of watches. What I didn't realise was that for so many women this story had never before been discussed or written about in the watch press. It's 2021 for heaven's sake, and women are only just being consulted by the watch industry on what they really really want....
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/all-w ... -heres-why

I'm not attacking the entire watch industry. I'm not attacking 'men'. I think that the case for doing away with "men' and 'women' in watches is well made, and makes increasing commercial and social sense as men choose smaller watches and women choose bigger ones. I haven't really written in depth about this as I intended, but will leave some space for discussion and questions. It would be interesting to hear feedback on the two articles I have quoted, because they're very well written. If you want to offer feedback on my opinions then that's fine too - they are just my opinions.

I'm off to the beach! Will be interested to catch up on this thread later :thumbup:
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by tikkathree »

jtc wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:59 am My wife's not really into watches, but all the ones she has ooh'd at have been "men's" watches in the 36mm upwards range. She'd also not want a diamond encrusted monstrosity!

All watches sorted by case size should be sufficient online, the by collection in shops. Sorted.
Same in this household. We all think about watch diameter relative to wrist circumference and mostly what my learned spouse wears is my IWC Porsche Design crosshairs watch. Occasionally her late dad's hand-winder. Nothing which came in a "my 'ickle pony bimbette" packaging. I pity the sales rep who takes one faltering step down that fatal path. :lol:
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

Thanks Pete
(The beach was very pleasant - Scotland has lifted the stay-at-home directive for this holiday weekend, and there were loads of groups out enjoying the sun)
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by Thermexman »

ajax87 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:22 pm ^^^ most of us already use filters to narrow down what we’re looking for. If not, its not like adding one tiny step to our watch search would have any meaningful negative impact on our lives. It would however have positive meaningful impact to others.
Well, that told me!
However, it’s not just going to be one filter is it? If you can’t separate out the “woman’s” style watches with one filter, like you currently do, it’ll be an infinite variety of filters, to narrow it down to the stereotypical “matcho man” style I’m looking for.

Anyway, I was not really being that serious. :problem: :silent:
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by ajax87 »

Thermexman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:03 pm
ajax87 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:22 pm ^^^ most of us already use filters to narrow down what we’re looking for. If not, its not like adding one tiny step to our watch search would have any meaningful negative impact on our lives. It would however have positive meaningful impact to others.
Well, that told me!
However, it’s not just going to be one filter is it? If you can’t separate out the “woman’s” style watches with one filter, like you currently do, it’ll be an infinite variety of filters, to narrow it down to the stereotypical “matcho man” style I’m looking for.

Anyway, I was not really being that serious. :problem: :silent:
Haha, I got you Steve. Regardless, we’re at the mercy of whatever “they” decide to do anyway. The most we can do is voice our opinion and hope for the best.
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

ajax87 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:19 pm Regardless, we’re at the mercy of whatever “they” decide to do anyway. The most we can do is voice our opinion and hope for the best.
The situation is interesting though. It seems that the opinions of 50% of the population have been underrepresented (or frankly unheard - take your pick) in the watch world. A giant sleeping giant is being tickled in the ribs - imagine the commercial possibilities if we actually knew - for real - what 50% of the population want in their watches! We never thought to ask!!
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by H0rati0 »

missF wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:23 pm imagine the commercial possibilities if we actually knew - for real - what 50% of the population want in their watches! We never thought to ask!!
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

Cait Bazemore, Shop Editor at Hodinkee, wrote that article about non-gendered watches that got everyone talking. She has put together a list of pre-owned watches chosen by various women who work at Hodinkee:

https://shop.hodinkee.com/blogs/journal ... apr-1-2021

And not a diamond in sight....
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by missF »

magicman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:20 am
Or will all watchmakers offer 30mm up to 44mm in each design ?


My daughter (26) who works in retail, suggested. Perhaps the same could be done with Perfumes/aftershaves, where the ladies are often per ML double the price of the Men's.

Sorry Steve, I missed commenting on these two points you made.
As to the first point, nothing here is requiring that the watch industry do anything other than what it does - sell watches. If companies make sales at all these sizes then they will carry on making these sizes. A change to gender-free labelling just frees everyone up to buy what they want, and therefore express that to the industry. If women chose slightly larger sized watches, and men choose slightly smaller sized watches (as seems to be the current trend), then people of any gender can simply search for watches of the size and design they choose. And 'the industry' might start asking some pertinent questions it has never asked before i.e. what do subgroups of people who are not white men with large wrists actually want to wear??

The second point is (I think) a really good example of somewhere else where gendered selling makes little sense. Sure - women may prefer floral scents more often and men may prefer woody or musky scents, but the cross-over is likely larger than most advertisers would expect.
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by Kip »

:-k What if this gender free movement takes on the clothing industry. What a mess that will make. :silent:
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Re: Non-story anyone? MissF and other women: your thoughts please?

Post by nbg »

A few random unconnected comments: :)

- regardless of how a brand describes a watch, I am struggling to understand why a man, woman, or undecided wouldn’t just wear what watch they want.

- as to woman don’t really want small and or diamond type watches. Well IIRC the top selling Rolex model in the UK is a small, not large, TT lady DateJust, many of which have a diamond dot dial.

- a woman who is wearing an oversized watch looks better than a man wearing an oversized watch.

- one of the three top selling MK watches is 42mm. More popular with women than men.

- whilst the average mans wrist has probably become larger over the past 30 years, due to lack of exercise and obesity - the number of removable links from the bracelet of a modern 6 digit Professional range Rolex has increased. Maybe to cater for increased wear of Subs, GMTs etc by woman.

- Mrs nbg’s daily watch is 28mm with a black diamond dot dial. The largest she will occasionally wear is 36mm. I have mentioned that some petite wristed woman wear a SubC. She isn’t interested.
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