redmonaco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:38 pm

ajax87 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:18 pm I had the same thought when I got my C60 Abyss back from service last month. 600m WR, only tested to 300m. I thought about it for a sec then put it out of my mind because it does not matter for me at all as a non-diver.

Was that 300m or 30m?

Watches with 30m are not recommended to go near water!!!

It was tested to 30bar, 30atm, 300m.

OllyW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:05 pm This is what Bremont say about their servicing, I guess they don't work to industry standard.

Step 13: Water resistance testing

The watch head is pressure tested with a full depth test, encompassing overpressure ratings, designed to ensure that the watch is able to perform at the required pressure.

I think a lot of what Bremont does exceeds industry standard, which is why you'll be paying a good bit more than for a CW.

I think that is a load of BS. My local watch maker and the local AD does routine WR tests to the rated depth rating + 25% for divers + 10% for non-divers as part of each service (per ISO standards). You can request a WR test only as well. This does have limits though. If you have a Deepsea (3900m) or Deepsea challenge (11000m) those have to go back to Rolex in Switzerland as they are the only ones who have the equipment to test it. I think (I am going from memory here) they can handle the regular Sea-Dwellers though at 1220m.

CW has opened themselves up to this kind of thing by not clearly defining what is included in a standard service. To me it would be fine that they only tested to whatever number in a standard service as long as you could request a more thorough testing and you new what the standard test was beforehand. But neither of these things are known.

I would like to see the data that shows if the watch is going to fail it is more likely to fail at 30 than it is at 300 or whatever the number. There may be truth in it and maybe not. I don't know. But it seems clear that if it were true then the ISO standards would reflect the empirical data. Right now they don't.

I do know that todays watches are drastically over engineered and under specified in marketing. Beyond the Press has put even the cheapest watches in their chamber (that goes to 300bar - yes that is 3km) and they survive well above the stated rating. Sometimes 2x. Most of the failures are structural (at first) where the caseback deforms and pushes the movement into the crystal stopping the watch. When the pressure is released they start running again. Of course, they then take the watches to crush depth which is fun to watch.

ajax87 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:52 pm

OllyW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:05 pm This is what Bremont say about their servicing, I guess they don't work to industry standard.

Step 13: Water resistance testing

The watch head is pressure tested with a full depth test, encompassing overpressure ratings, designed to ensure that the watch is able to perform at the required pressure.

I think a lot of what Bremont does exceeds industry standard, which is why you'll be paying a good bit more than for a CW.

While some of the pricing is do to this I think the vast majority of the markup is due to the higher manufacturing costs.

ajax87 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:51 pm

redmonaco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:38 pm

ajax87 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:18 pm I had the same thought when I got my C60 Abyss back from service last month. 600m WR, only tested to 300m. I thought about it for a sec then put it out of my mind because it does not matter for me at all as a non-diver.

Was that 300m or 30m?

Watches with 30m are not recommended to go near water!!!

It was tested to 30bar, 30atm, 300m.

Was that from CW?

I wouldn't be concerned if mine had been tested to 300m as that would be more than sufficient for most people but CW say they only test to 30m which means it's safe for hand washing or light rain!!!

redmonaco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:04 pm

ajax87 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:51 pm

redmonaco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:38 pm

Was that 300m or 30m?

Watches with 30m are not recommended to go near water!!!

It was tested to 30bar, 30atm, 300m.

Was that from CW?

I wouldn't be concerned if mine had been tested to 300m as that would be more than sufficient for most people but CW say they only test to 30m which means it's safe for hand washing or light rain!!!

Yes, from CW. My apologies, this whole time I guess I just misread your OP and thought it was tested to 30bar, but I re-read it and see only 3bar. I'm certain mine was tested to 30atm, though now I'm second guessing myself. I can't check since I don't have the repair receipt anymore as I just sold it and sent it off earlier this week. I could be wrong.

Kip wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:08 pm I don't know the max rated machine that CW uses, but I understand them only testing at 3 bar.

If they do only test to 3 bar it should be made clear before servicing because there’s no way you could trust a watch for diving or even swimming if it’s only tested as being safe for washing your hands.

Well the "do your research" facility comes up thus:

"Will my repair be covered by my warranty?
Once the watch is back with us and inspected, we will be able to confirm whether the repair falls within the warranty or not. Please click here for move details about what is covered under warranty.

Does my warranty change after repair/ service?
All service and repair works come with a one year warranty if outside of the warranty."

and

"Do you water pressure test my watch when back for repair/ service?
All watches are pressure tested before they are sent back out to you. If the watch is found has failed its pressure test, we will personally reach out and let you know."

Have I had a watch serviced/repaired at CW and questioned WR testing? Well it won't be the C8 I'm wearing today for sure, nor the C50 COSC when I was a bit disappointed to receive no proof of how the serviced watch was running against COSC and when I asked the response was along the lines of "had it not been within COSC we wouldn't have released it back to you" Er, yes well.....

I had an Omega Seamaster serviced within the last 20 years by a London "Swiss watch repair house", the kind of organisation which pops up top of a google search. I wanted the watch mechanically checked over but wanted it to retain its external scars/patina which includes a couple of scratches in the crystal. We reached a standoff because they declared that these scratches prevented them from doing a pressure test. in fact the scratch is so superficial that you can't catch a fingernail on it.

Another Seamaster more recently serviced by Omega; dug out the paperwork, watch serviced November 2018 and I recorded on my payment receipt the date, name of sales rep in the Goldsmiths branch involved "WR tested to depth stated on dial, accuracy within -1/+6 seconds". I didn't make these things up and I was given answers to questions I must have asked.

So do I believe there to be an "Industry standard"? No sir I do not.

Omega provide this information on their website:

"Reassembly of the case and renewal of the water resistance
The case is reassembled and all gaskets ensuring the water resistance are replaced."
Omega provide a two year warranty by the way so one year here, two years there...

But here's a thing which might be an elephant in the room and I raise this not to impugn but just how do we know our new watch is actually WR to the stated standard for the model of watch? Do they all get tested before shipping? I think that's rather like asking if my new car achieves the stated maximum speed: there is simply an assumption that it - the car, the watch - has been built to a specification.

Where does that leave us? Put your watch in for service and what you receive back is a watch which should still achieve the dial stated WR. But don't we like worrying about these things?

tikkathree wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:59 pm
But here's a thing which might be an elephant in the room and I raise this not to impugn but just how do we know our new watch is actually WR to the stated standard for the model of watch? Do they all get tested before shipping? I think that's rather like asking if my new car achieves the stated maximum speed: there is simply an assumption that it - the car, the watch - has been built to a specification.

ISO requires each watch to be tested so if it states ISO Diver then yes it is tested. Unfortunately, if not stated it is left up to the manufacturer. Some do test and some only batch test I would guess. Some test to or exceed ISO but don't visually advertise that they do on the watch or in marketing. Rolex, Tudor and Omega for example. Seiko is the most popular example of one manufacturer that does.

For my own stuff, the watches I use in the water the most get tested to dial + 25% every year or two. This is with the understanding that if it fails it would have to go back to CW for repair. If it is something my watchmaker has a parts account for then he takes care of it.

I think @rkovars and @tikkathree have summed things up perfectly, warts and all.

I find myself incredulous at the utter rubbish this sounds to me.
Cw are sending out one of there own watches sold on the basis of exceptional WR with no idea if it can meet the standard in the dial.
If they can’t test above 30 m in house that is a disgrace and a joke.
Industry standard my a**e!

From what I know about watch repair. The test is pressurizing the watch in a sealed unit which has water below. The watch is taken to 3 bar and if there is a leak in the seal the pressure goes to the inside of the watch. The watch is then lowered into the water and the pressure released. If there is leak in the seal bubbles will come out of the case.

The rated value is what they are tested too initially. The 3 to 10 bar test is just make sure the seals set properly

Well, I'm not impressed.

Certina and Tissot have both confirmed that pressure test to watch original spec Plus 2 year warranty Plus around a third cheaper servicing costs.

What is the point of buying a dive watch from a company that when serviced only provides a year warranty And doesn't test wr above splash test... (30m wr!!)

Even if they say they will honour warranty if watch let's in water it will only be for a year so that means to be confident you can take it in to a pool at holiday time you'd have to have it serviced Every Year!! :0(

OllyW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:18 pm

Kip wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:08 pm I don't know the max rated machine that CW uses, but I understand them only testing at 3 bar.

If they do only test to 3 bar it should be made clear before servicing because there’s no way you could trust a watch for diving or even swimming if it’s only tested as being safe for washing your hands.

If CW only test a 600m dive watch to 3bar they may as well go back to the early learning centre and to selling toys.

For all the greatness and good times there is always a blip around the corner.

Whether that be turning into the biggest kickstarter in town by having so many watches on pre-order only and not meeting delivery dates...

Selling a limited edition but then every colour under the sun...

Claiming you are selling your last quartz, then selling others...

Selling a watch with a higher water resistance but then realising it is wrong and sending out a new dial...

Not aligning text correctly and not admitting to the mistake immediately and thinking it is within tolerance but then eventually owning up...

Accusing people of dishonesty when there is water ingress and then shortly after switching to a screw down crown across the range...

Whilst they do great watches there is a problem that the level of trust in them doesn't rise at the same rate as the prices of their watches do which is a a shame.