I like to think that I am a fair minded person and open to new ideas etc. At this point in my life I can pretty much tell if I like something or not upon first glance. I understand that we all like different things and that there is no perfect solution such as one size fits all. I accept my limitations and ask questions if I don't understand. I gather facts before rushing to a judgement. I can accept, yet disagree with another's point of view.

I don't like Tag Heuer watches in general as I know they ripped off the public for many years with a certain line of watches (they were not the only ones). I still accept that they have and do build some fine watches. I feel the same about Hublot. Not my style for sure, yet generally well built. I would never buy one due to my service experience and the ultra astronomical prices they charge for service parts.

I have been scanning many other forums since the release of the C1 Bel Canto. Old "grudges" seem to be surfacing again with respect to why would anyone pay this much for a CW. Frequent mentions of the why they shouldn't do this as they are a sub $2000 brand and should stay there. Chatter around marketing techniques and always questioning why pay this amount when you could buy xx brand for that money. Have people totally lost the plot? If you don't like it fine, but do they not see the engineering and the price point that has been achieved? Compare please.

CW has been making people angry since day 1 when they released the C5 Malvern at sub $300. They have slowly and methodically moved forward with marketing, pricing and engineering achievements as a company and obviously have upset quite a few. I have been here since near the beginning. I have not agreed with everything they have done nor have I liked every watch they have built. In retrospect, I believe those at CW don't like everything they have done and built either. What I do appreciate is what they have accomplished over the long haul. I appreciate what they offer as a company and the vfm on most every watch.

I get that not everyone has not been suitably enamored with the products or service. No one will win them all. That I understand. Is it the logo issues over the years? Is it the fluff marketing hype at times?

What I don't understand is ......Why the haters? That is my question.

I have never felt as if I have been ripped off by any brand, each has and gives me pleasure. I don’t hate any brand, those that do I’ve come to the conclusion are not very nice people.

The big boys spend lots on marketing and political votes are largely won by making the opposition look bad rather than yourself look good - I guess at least some of the haters are paid anti-shills.

An interesting question, Kip

I may need more time to formulate my considered answer.

I absolutely love the C60 Trident 600 range, unbelievable quality and looks for the money.

But I’m in the camp of “I’d never pay over a certain amount for a CW”. My limit would be less than £1500 for a CW.

Particularly the Bel Canto, there are a few I’d pay circa £3000. But, a CW, never ever.

I think hate is a strong word, some of it is defo brand snobness, some of it is misunderstanding of what CW are trying to do and some of it is just ignorance. I think the brand image has suffered because of bad marketing, the DFS sales structure and all the other topics that were brought up in the ‘how can cw be better thread’. I admit it must be hard to be taken serious when you’re known for cheap watches. I dislike MF (which puts me off buying sometimes when I think about where my money is going) more than I dislike CW (the brand not Person). I also think the sub $2000 comment does carry some weight, they for the main use basic movements which is what it’s all about for people and I have previously mentioned that I do not think it matters below a certain price point. This could also be said about the Bel Canto to an extent. Tone can never come across in text and the word hate is used heavily when talking about online views so maybe it’s just dislike for some and hate for the few.

I read around on a few other watch forums, including a Rolex one. What I’ll say applies to everything I read but is especially prevalent on the Rolex forum.

The majority of what I read is pretty formulaic in terms of the attitudes and opinions that people hold. Consider especially the word ‘desirable’... I see people all the time on the Rolex forum who have their names in an AD’s list for several models, and when it comes to getting ‘the call’ what they want to know most is ‘which watch is most desirable’. Not - which watch do I love for its design and mechanical joy...

I’ll get slated for saying all of this. I know that this is only a vocal subset of Rolex collectors, but what we’re talking about here are a vocal subset of people who are vocal online about CW. So bear with me.

Who decides which Rolex is more ‘desirable’? Who decides whether Longines is more ‘desirable’ than Tissot, or Omega more ‘desirable’ than Seiko?

Most people if you ask them will tell you that their opinions are their own, and they’re not influenced by the views of advertisers or other watch enthusiasts.
However, most people (in any sphere of life) are far far more influenced by social pressures to belong and be part of the crowd than they are following their own thoughts. So opinion (whether researched or ridiculous) quickly becomes mantra, and reciting mantra quickly becomes the easiest way to bond as a group and therefore feel comfortable in the world.

We all do this. Humanity would fall apart if we didn’t use powerful methods to keep us bonded together in groups. The cognitive dissonance that occurs when we change one of our mantras, change our mind, move to a different way of thinking, is massive, and truly very disorienting and difficult. It literally feels like we’re losing all of our safety. This is why it’s so difficult to get one person to change their political allegiance and cross the floor, even when they have experienced years of horror at the hands of ‘their’ party.

If CW are making people angry then I’m delighted. It’s fantastic for CW! If they’re making people angry it’s because of that cognitive dissonance really starting to bite, as people who until now had very fixed mantras to recite about CW, are having to face the risky possibility of changing their mind and moving away from the group rhetoric. Can you imagine being the one person on the Rolex forum I described above (blah blah blah flex), who stands up and says on the open forum ‘Christopher Ward have just built an amazing watch. It’s called the Bel Canto. I love it’.....

Fantastic news for CW. Mike France and the whole staff should be really proud. Sure they built an amazing watch but they also created something

Why the haters? A thesis could be written on this Kip; I'm not going to try.

A few very general pointers that I have picked up on this whole watch thing since I started to take an interest in watches.

• There is a huge amount of snobbery present in watch collecting/appreciation.

• There are a lot of sheep-type people that want to run with the pack and are intolerant of other's choices.

• In some corners there is a tribal element to watch collecting. Some feel the need to belong, it appears to offer validation.

• The internet in general can be a place for pretty unregulated vitriol.

• Some people just like having an axe to grind...about anything.

Yada, yada, yada...the list goes on. You can't change those types; I don't try.


WATER.OFF.A.DUCK'S.BACK

Des

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience

Mark Twain.

And no, I don't understand "hating" a watch brand either. If you don't like it, just don't buy. Then get on with your life.

Kip wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:15 pm What I don't understand is ......Why the haters? That is my question.

Because it’s easy to hate. It requires very little effort or thinking to hate. It can feel empowering.

And I’ll add because we’re also very tribal.

Elitism does funny things to the brain. Also, A LOT of human decision making is built on 2 very fundamental weaknesses. It's done quickly, without much thought or consideration. And, once it's challenged, it's doubled down upon for stupid face-saving reasons.

missF wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:29 pm If CW are making people angry then I’m delighted.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Mark Twain was quoted above, righteously so.

I think another, equally important historical icon should be quoted as well:

“Haters gonna hate. I’m just gonna shake it off”.

-Taylor Swift

I don't visit any other watch forum, but did a google search of "christopher ward bel canto". A Watchuseek thread popped up. It was pretty positive overall, and any criticism was mainly fair. Same with the reddit and watchcrunch threads on the subject. Even the rolex forum thread that showed up in the search was positive: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=12453807

So I don't know what watch forums Kip visited which had the negative reactions. It's certainly clear I don't know what the "important"/popular watch forums are.

exHowfener wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:52 pm

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience

Mark Twain.

And no, I don't understand "hating" a watch brand either. If you don't like it, just don't buy. Then get on with your life.

Love the quote, brilliant.

Des

I think it's wider than watches and is a fairly fundamental human characteristic.

When it comes to anything - Cars, music, politics, books, religion, films...watches. Some people are happy to think what they think and let other people think what they want to think. These people will embrace the differences, be happy with their lot and be happy that others are happy with theirs.

Then there are others, and I think that is what we are talking about here, who are not so comfortable with such a variety or at least can't understand it and have an irresistible urge to explain why they think what they think and to tell those who think differently that they don't understand it and why they shouldn't think that way.

Some will agree to disagree quietly and others will not. Some will accept there is more than one right way, others will not. People are people and people do what people do.