@WileyECoyote Thanks, Delmar. I’d better keep politics out of this, but I’m not likely to buy from abroad these days. Mind you, I’m not a fan of buying things online either. Bricks and mortar, human interaction and cash!

From my perspective, if in the UK, and a private company such as DHL requested this data for the UK equivalent, say a NI Number, they wouldnt get it.

If you work in the U.K your employer knows your Ni number. If you receive benefits (including State Pension) your bank knows your NI number. It's not such a big secret.

Bricks and mortar, human interaction and cash!

Oh, the irony of posting this on an internet forum about an online watch company But I know what you mean, I too prefer cash. When I was still gardening I preferred cash. Sometimes people would assume this was to avoid paying tax. No - it's so I know I've been paid for the job! If you've only had a salaried job you may be surprised as to how many people think paying for work they've asked to be done is optional.

IT Guy here....currently specializing in Audit/Risk/Cyber.

UK (and other countries) privacy laws are so much STRONGER than in the US. The US favors big business over the individual. As such, one must protect a social security number because if it gets out, people can EASILY do things to harm you: identity theft, open credit cards in your name, open loans in your name, open bank accounts in your name. It is too easy in the US to steal another person's identity and steal from them. All businesses want is a little personal information, not even always the social security number, and you can do so many financial things in another person's name. It is truly scary how bad it is.

The other issue is that businesses, and the people who work for them, rarely get in trouble for disclosing personally identifiable information so they do not do enough to protect it. Businesses see it as a waste of time and money to protect consumers personal data. In the US, our personal information are the products so we the citizens, have very little control over it.

Even our credit cards are not as well protected as they are in the UK. Sure, we have PCI compliance but they are toothless guidelines rather than strict laws even if a company follows it.

As an example, my wife has always worked in secondary k-12 private schools. The business offices are small and they rarely have an HR person so they are always understaffed and overworked. As a new employee, they ask for your social security number so they can setup payroll, health benefits, and then retirement plans. They take your social security number, write on a piece of paper, leave it on their desk or maybe in your personnel file located in an unlocked cabinet in an unlocked office, so when they have enough new people they will process them all at once. And what do you think happens? That HR person tales out all of these pieces of paper and puts them on their desk where it may sit unprotested for several hours or even days. Does it get shredded when they are done? No, it goes back into your file in the unlocked cabinet in the unlocked office. Needless to say, I tell my wife not to give them her number and whenever they want to process her data they can call her and she will come type it into the system the HR person is using but ti will never get written down.

The takeaway is the most US business are small and simply do not have the resources, knowledge, desire, or care to protect your personal information because there are no consequences if they mishandle it and you become the victim of identity fraud.

The more important takeaway, is the government processes and IT systems are some of the worst in the world so I would not trust giving my private personal information to a government employee, over the phone or by email, unless I truly had no other choice. For a watch, I would call the seller and tell them to figure it out because I did not cause the problem in the first place.

exHowfener wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:57 pm If you work in the U.K your employer knows your Ni number. If you receive benefits (including State Pension) your bank knows your NI number. It's not such a big secret.

They may, but that does not mean everyone has access to it. If they do, there are strict requirements about who and why it can be accessed and often is tracked in a log. Usually it is entered into a secure system once but humans may not be able to see it again.

The EU (and I think UK still follows it) GDPR laws are so much stricter than anything we have in the US. It's simple in the US, big business donate lots of money to politicians and then the politicians make sure laws are written to enhance companies bottom line rather than protect citizens.

^^^ Please can we make sure this discussion does not stray into the realm of politics? Thank you.

(Review: Forum rule 1.3)

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:44 pm ^^^ Please can we make sure this discussion does not stray into the realm of politics? Thank you.

(Review: Forum rule 1.3)

Sorry, from a US citizens standpoint this was not a political statement as it did not endorse/judge/criticize/promote any one party. With that said, I will be more careful in the future.

^^^ No worries, thank you.

Thanks everyone for your input. I have never had to supply my Social Security number for a watch purchase or any other type of purchase that didn't involve a loan. I do not understand why they would need this information and with a sense of undue caution, I am not going to start providing it now.

I have contacted CW and will wait to see what they can do about the situation. Hopefully it is a paperwork mistake and the worst case scenario is that the watch will be sent back to CW.

Will keep you informed of my adventure.

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:34 pm

exHowfener wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:57 pm If you work in the U.K your employer knows your Ni number. If you receive benefits (including State Pension) your bank knows your NI number. It's not such a big secret.

They may, but that does not mean everyone has access to it. If they do, there are strict requirements about who and why it can be accessed and often is tracked in a log. Usually it is entered into a secure system once but humans may not be able to see it again.

The EU (and I think UK still follows it) GDPR laws are so much stricter than anything we have in the US. It's simple in the US, big business donate lots of money to politicians and then the politicians make sure laws are written to enhance companies bottom line rather than protect citizens.

As an example: if you change jobs your current employer gives you a P45 document which contains your taxable salary and tax paid for the year to date, and your NI number .(SSN). You give that printed document to your new employer to enter your tax details so you continue to have your tax and other deductions calculated correctly.

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:29 pm @WileyECoyote Thanks, Delmar. I’d better keep politics out of this, but I’m not likely to buy from abroad these days. Mind you, I’m not a fan of buying things online either. Bricks and mortar, human interaction and cash!

I should think out of stuff that goes on our joint credit card, about half is food purchases, and other in person non food but regular type payments such as petrol, car spares, household stationery etc.

The other half is one off payment, luxury purchases, insurance policies, holidays etc etc. Some are UK, but a few are imports, generally AliX, occasionally eBay.

I remember when direct debits started, I used to go into my local bank branch to pay monthly bills. That local branch has now closed I think, but it doesn't matter. I visit a bank branch maybe twice a year at most. Everything is paid by DD rather than cheque.

JAFO wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:35 pm As an example: if you change jobs your current employer gives you a P45 document which contains your taxable salary and tax paid for the year to date, and your NI number .(SSN). You give that printed document to your new employer to enter your tax details so you continue to have your tax and other deductions calculated correctly.

We have a W4 Form - Withholding where the employee chooses how many personal deductions they want and then the employer uses a tax table based on the annual salary amount (projected not already earned) to factor withholding (federal taxes, state taxes, city taxes, social security, etc.) for the tax/calendar year. An employee would never give a W2 Form - Wage and Tax Statement from one employer to the next because why would you want your new employer to know how much money you made at your last employer? And, we only receive W2 forms at the end of the tax/calendar year from each employer. W4 Forms we submit whenever to any new employers.

And the W-2 should not show ones entire SSN. The W-4 that most people give to a new employer will require their SSN but again this makes me crazy because it is on paper and often not handled properly.

JAFO wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:47 pm I remember when direct debits started, I used to go into my local bank branch to pay monthly bills. That local branch has now closed I think, but it doesn't matter. I visit a bank branch maybe twice a year at most. Everything is paid by DD rather than cheque.

This is another source of frustration because in the US, our debit cards are not protected the same way as credit cards but I believe they are the same in the UK and most European countries. Meaning, if fraud is perpetuated against someone's debit card and their underlying bank account is emptied, the customer and not the bank is responsible. In the US we have much better protections using credit cards and why debit cards have never really been used in this country the same way they are in others.

From a cultural standpoint, we also give our cards out to strangers all the time. When you dine at most restaurants in the US, when the check arrives you give your waiter your credit card and they go somewhere, often out of sight, and process the transaction. They can easily copy the number and/or give it away for others to use. From my experience in the UK and other European countries, these transactions happen at the table via a portable machine so the customer is in control of their credit card the entire time.

[mention]nycWATCHnerd[/mention]
(I can't get the mention tag to work correctly for some reason)

Our tax system calculates income tax (pay as you earn PAYE) for regular employees by evaluating your total tax due for the year so far, based on accumulating 1/12 of your annual allowances for each month earned, and calculating the total tax due to that month. The current month's tax deduction is therefore the total tax calculation so far less the total tax previously deducted from your salary. This system allows for breaks of employment etc, and is the main reason UK workers don't need to file tax returns, because they have already paid the correct amount of tax.

If you have multiple jibs one job will be allocated all your allowances, and you will pay basic rate tax on all the income earned in other jobs. Some people, self employed, or with more complicated personal situations still have to complete a tax return. This will also cause an issue if your total earnings take you into a higher tax bracket. Total income can also affect state welfare payments and benefits

This is also more complex for people with income from savings or investments, as tax may be payable on these amounts, This means that millions of people who have never had to complete a tax return previously now need to do so. I think the HMRC will catch up eventually if you don't declare your income, but you might then have a large tax bill for multiple years. There are also fines and penalties for not completing a return when you should.

Generally speaking your earnings from a previous employment are of no real interest to your new employer's payroll dept, other than to evaluate your tax in the new employment. I doubt anyone gives it a second thought.

@nycWATCHnerd
For some reason the mention tags in my previous post didn't work correctly. Strange.

I won't go into the difference between UK debit cards and credit cards. What I meant was when DDs first started there was an element of mistrust, (well, I wasn't sure) and now it's completely different. We seem to use them all the while, and hardly ever need to visit a bank. Lots of bank branches are closing, and it can make cash transactions for businesses and people, especially the elderly more complicated. Some bars and other places refuse to accept cash now.

I read a recent article about payment card fraud in Sweden.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/banki ... field-day/

JAFO wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2024 1:22 am This is also more complex for people with income from savings or investments, as tax may be payable on these amounts, This means that millions of people who have never had to complete a tax return previously now need to do so. I think the HMRC will catch up eventually if you don't declare your income, but you might then have a large tax bill for multiple years. There are also fines and penalties for not completing a return when you should.

David do you recall the source that indicated millions who have never had to complete a tax return now need to do so?

Neil

Theirs loads of discussion about it.

It's a sort of perfect storm.
personal allowances haven't been increased for a number of years. For 2023/34 if you have interest in excess of £1000 you have to pay tax on the excess. Interest rates have risen so at 5% interest, you need savings of only around £20000 to hit that limit. For this year 2024/25 the figure of £1000 is dropping to £500, so even with interest rates falling back you will only need savings of around £12000. For retired people, the old age pension has increased over the last few years so the pension itself is almost at the level of the personal allowance. Therefore you need only a modest additional earnings amount from further pensions and investment income to need to pay tax and complete a tax return.

This was HMRC at the start of 2024 for tax year 2022/23. There will be many more people now needing to complete tax returns for 2023/24 (submit by the end of Jan 25, and even more in the current tax year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/less ... o-be-filed

Here's a guardian article about it.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/ ... avers-told
(I just went back to this, and now there's a registration wall for me)

This will affect pensioners in particular who may not appreciate they have to pay tax, may not have computers and smart phones, and may not have the understanding to complete what are really quite complex forms.

Here's a daily mail/mail online article
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... m-hit.html