I actually really like the watch, but I don't have £4k to spend on one and if I did, it'd be a second hand Black Bay 58 and maybe a tidy SM 300 to go with it (£4k buys a lot of watch(es)!)

...then there's the size, 41mm is too big for me and for this style of watch, at 38mm, it'd be about perfect.

Something else perhaps often overlooked would be the need to have regular servicing, as particles from the movement will soon start floating around and be visible.

Mark I doubt if was based upon fully absorbed costs…

If you decide to exclude a few “exceptional” items each year in the P&L from a definition of “fully absorbed” you would expect there to have been an annual profit. There hasn’t been.

I think the reference to 3x more likely referred to direct costs of production.

I have always thought it irrelevant to my thought process as to whether or not I bought a CW. Like it - buy it, providing I thought I would end up wearing it enough, relative to the amount I had paid.

I think CW have pitched the price in the correct ballpark.

Neil

nbg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:26 pm Mark I doubt if was based upon fully absorbed costs…

If you decide to exclude a few “exceptional” items each year in the P&L from a definition of “fully absorbed” you would expect there to have been an annual profit. There hasn’t been.

I think the reference to 3x more likely referred to direct costs of production.

I have always thought it irrelevant to my thought process as to whether or not I bought a CW. Like it - buy it, providing I thought I would end up wearing it enough, relative to the amount I had paid.

I think CW have pitched the price in the correct ballpark.

Neil

I've said before that I think 3x cost is a small multiple to support a 5 yr no questions warranty, with the inventory that probably requires.

It may well be adequate to support a retail sales operation, where a completed sale is one and done, pretty much.

nbg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:26 pm Mark I doubt if was based upon fully absorbed costs…

If you decide to exclude a few “exceptional” items each year in the P&L from a definition of “fully absorbed” you would expect there to have been an annual profit. There hasn’t been.

I think the reference to 3x more likely referred to direct costs of production.

I have always thought it irrelevant to my thought process as to whether or not I bought a CW. Like it - buy it, providing I thought I would end up wearing it enough, relative to the amount I had paid.

I think CW have pitched the price in the correct ballpark.

Neil

Cheers Neil. I don't seem to have insight into the depth of information from Companies House that you do. At the risk of being negative or intelligent we should all wish that CW were profitable. Like you, I've never worried too much about the value side. My way of looking at any watch can be summarised as, "Do I like it and can I afford it?" Unfortunately, you and I are often in the minority as the comments here suggest. The current range seems to encapsulate the idea of good, better, best rather well. A range that spans $625 (C63 Valour) to $4,895 (C12X) should have something for everyone. I've never understood the urge to say "that's too much" on every launch. As my collection has grown I've also become more concerned about how much I would wear any given piece and that has moderated my buying behaviour. I like the C12X, I can afford it, have paid my deposit and will wear it. It may not be to everyone's taste and that's as it should be. I can understand the admire but not like viewpoint too. Many watches fit into that category for me as well. If I didn't like it I wouldn't buy it but the apparent "outrage" at the price amuses me.

As a fan of Christopher Ward and their watches I want them to succeed. It's fun to speculate on how they may do that. The Bel Canto changed the view of the brand and its success at GPHG was part of that. It only takes a cursory look at the reviews of recent CW watches to know that they have evolved from being "a rather generic dress watch brand" into something quite different. The Bel Canto, "the Twelve" and now the XIIX will bring new customers to the brand and that means new opportunities and new ways of doing things. We should all want CW to grow and have a long future. When asked during the forum preview if he imagined that the brand would be where it is now, he gave the obvious answer, "No." What's important is the path to success for the next twenty years. Speculation on how they achieve success is part of the fun.

It's all too easy to be comfortable with stasis and be happy with the current status quo. The world does have a habit of moving on though. The steps CW have taken with their partners to improve the Bel Canto waiting times, find new ways to finish movements, moving to new headquarters to provide more space for operations and an investment in a new partner are a great foundation for the future. As Neil (nbg) says CW have a patchy record when it comes to financials. We should all want that to change. It's always better to be aware of alternative paths even if you choose not to take them and that opens up the risk of being misinterpreted.

Joining the conversation slightly late but I did join the forum preview on Monday.

Preview - I think it is great that CW continue to offer these previews for members of the forum and FB group, we're lucky to be party to these. As for the format Vimeo vs Zoom, I personally much prefer Zoom as you can see all the participants and read the live dialogue/comments that are being posted throughout the presentation. This feels much more interactive/participative than Vimeo...although as I say it is still a privilege to get a preview at all.

The watch - very fine looking watch and looks very well designed, thought out and finished. The size is sensible and compares favourably to the Zenith Defy Classic Skeleton (41mm too but about 1mm taller than the Twelve X) or the Oris Propilot (43mm). When I first saw the Twelve XX, I thought of the Defy Classic. I've never really been a fan of skeleton watches and the Defy was probably my favourite. I probably would still marginally choose the Defy if I was going to go for a skeleton watch however it's a close call.

I wouldn't have an issue spending £4k on a CW and it certainly looks like the engineering and materials can justify that price. I thought about placing a pre-order but for various reasons I decided to hold off. It's an open series so will still be available if I change my mind, the other colourways that Mike France alluded to may give the watch a little more visual interest.

I think this watch should be a success for CW and further enhance their reputation on the back of the Bel Canto. I don't think it will quite capture the imagination and get the plaudits of the BC but will no doubt help build more brand capital.

Just seeing comments above on the profitability of CW, I did notice a few months ago when I was interested enough to look at their latest accounts (well I am an accountant) that they had turned the position around from a few year of making losses to actually reporting a profit for the past two years, most recently c. £1m for the year to March 2023 at which point they also had over £6m in the bank, no doubt helped by sales of and deposits for the BC. A further year has passed since then and I would expect that positive position to have continued/improved further.

^^^@Thegreyman^^^ Great news. Thanks for the clarification.

Nice watch. Definitely a step up for CWL.
Some kind of logo on the dial side may have been nice?
I don’t like the wait, I am very skeptical they will deliver before Christmas.

MarkingTime wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:12 pm I actually really like the watch, but I don't have £4k to spend on one and if I did, it'd be a second hand Black Bay 58 and maybe a tidy SM 300 to go with it (£4k buys a lot of watch(es)!)

...then there's the size, 41mm is too big for me and for this style of watch, at 38mm, it'd be about perfect.

Something else perhaps often overlooked would be the need to have regular servicing, as particles from the movement will soon start floating around and be visible.

Chances we get a smaller version? I'd love a 36mm or even 38mm

I appreciate the engineering and manufacture, but it's not my cup of coffee. I also don't care for open heart dials or most display backs. They seem like a novelty to me. For fun, I'd rather wear a StudioUnderd0g or a colorful Farer.

Bahnstormer_vRS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:00 pm Given time, it will have.
The micro-adjustment butterfly clasp for The Twelve's bracelet will be rolled out across the range in due course.

That's good news. CW built its brand on micro adjustable bracelets for the Trident series. It was a shame to see the Twelve and Twelve Ti get released without them , and that's why I've held off on buying one until now. The moment CWL drops a micro-adjust for the Twelve/Twelve Ti it will strongly differentiate it from other similarly offerings like the Tissot PRX and would be a buy for me.

As for my thoughts on the watch itself. I think it looks great. Definitely outside of my budget, but many nice things are. I wonder if economies of scale would've pushed the price down a little if it had been made as a continual model rather than a limited series. They managed to move all of the C60 Concepts eventually and I think the XIIXTI has a bit more universal appeal without all the fun colours of the C60 Concept and Apex.

@Thegreyman
Patrick we could have worked out that you are accountant, without you mentioning it…

Stating a profit EBITA, rather than after!

However the trading position and balance sheet look to be in a much better shape than they have ever been.

Neil

nbg wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 7:33 am @Thegreyman
Patrick we could have worked out that you are accountant, without you mentioning it…

Stating a profit EBITA, rather than after!

However the trading position and balance sheet look to be in a much better shape than they have ever been.

Neil

Yes Neil I was quoting EBITDA figures (best not bore anyone )but still a profit in 2023 even after all of these deducted. They certainly look to be in better financial health overall

wanged wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 4:31 am That's good news. CW built its brand on micro adjustable bracelets for the Trident series.

Sorry to shatter the illusion, but if I recall correctly the micro adjustable bracelet only became available around 2015. So they certainly didn’t build the brand on it. However, it is an excellent minor addition and I’m pleased to see its inclusion here.