Something you should know

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
User avatar
A1soknownas
Senior Guru
Senior Guru
Posts: 556
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:40 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by A1soknownas »

Leon O wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:39 am I don't recall ever reading a professional review that stated CW was only a good value when purchased with a voucher.
This doesn't mean that they are not even better value with a voucher though!

Would be interesting to know what professional means. There is a clear reciprocal beneficial relationship in this industry for access to product, drive Web traffic and so on. Many professional reviewers are almost like adverts these days, take Watch Pro as an example.
These users thanked the author A1soknownas for the post:
JAFO
nowttolose
Senior
Senior
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:58 pm
CW-watches: 4

Re: Something you should know

Post by nowttolose »

Effectively a 10-15% price rise without announcing a price rise.
These users thanked the author nowttolose for the post:
JAFO
Dave

C65 Super Compressor Black Sand
C60 Trident Pro 600 Mk3 38mm Black/Red
C60 Trident Pro 600 GMT Mk3 40mm Black
C65 Dartmouth Blue
Rolex Submariner 116610LN
Leon O
Senior Guru
Senior Guru
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:32 pm
CW-watches: 9

Re: Something you should know

Post by Leon O »

golfjunky wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:21 pm
albionphoto wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:16 pm
Leon O wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:39 am I don't recall ever reading a professional review that stated CW was only a good value when purchased with a voucher.
But it was quite a common trope in YT video reviews of CW. The line was "of course you never pay full price for a CW as there's always a sale or a voucher for them"...
your prob right for YT, maybe the when the OP was referring to Professional review they meant something else. with regards to the prices it is still for the main part true.
Yes, I was thinking of written articles such from sources such as Hodinkee etc. I'm generally turned off by YT reviewers and influencers since their objective is to obtain clicks through sensationalism rather than thoughtful analysis. I realize both writers and YouTubers have conflicts of interests...
C7 Rapide Quartz, C60 Pro 300 Chronograph Quartz, C3 Malvern Chronograph, C7 Rapide Chronograph Quartz, C65 AM GT LE, C7 Rapide Chrongraph LE, C65 Trident Diver HW, C5 Malvern 595, C65 Trident GMT Pepsi
User avatar
Alex r
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 1223
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:58 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: York uk

Re: Something you should know

Post by Alex r »

If you like and can afford the watch in question, I don't see what the issue is
If you have been sat on the fence about a watch it's usually an issue with design, size, colour etc rather than if only it was £100 cheaper I'd get it.
And if price is the main sticking point save up for longer or buy pre loved.
It's the watch you are buying not the price.

Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk

JAFO
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by JAFO »

A1soknownas wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:47 pm
This doesn't mean that they are not even better value with a voucher though!

Would be interesting to know what professional means. There is a clear reciprocal beneficial relationship in this industry for access to product, drive Web traffic and so on. Many professional reviewers are almost like adverts these days, take Watch Pro as an example.
Yes that's right. If there was no benefit from potential buyers being able to find press and video reviews, CW wouldn't send watches out for review, surely. They come back as NN watches so there's a clear cost to CW that they obviously think is worth while.

With regard to costs, I made the point in the loupe thread that I thought distribution of the printed magazine must be quite an expense. CW could charge for a subscription, and benefit subscribers by including a discount voucher. I certainly enjoy the magazine, but I value a saving on cost price even more. I must say I think discounts are always appreciated. Even at low Ali-Express prices the special discounts that take maybe an additional £10 or so off the cost of a watch are eagerly anticipated. I bought my last watch from Ali-X and saved about £30 (20%) of a low sale price because of the discount. and that's a watch under £150. Without the temporary discount, I may not have bought at all.

CW is different from an AD, where the AD has room to give a discount from the stated watch price, and potential buyers regularly discuss the likelihood of a discount from an AD. With on-line sellers there is virtually no possibility of making a deal. Sellers shouldn't take goodwill for granted. UK buyers are used to VAT, but I am sure US buyers are particularly sensitive to the the $800 cut-off point for import taxes, and I am sure the absence of a discount voucher will be even more sharply felt. Maybe the occasional sale, assuming they continue will be even more popular. The discount against the new price will be more meaningful, as there is no voucher alternative. :)

Alex r wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:46 pm If you like and can afford the watch in question, I don't see what the issue is
If you have been sat on the fence about a watch it's usually an issue with design, size, colour etc rather than if only it was £100 cheaper I'd get it.
And if price is the main sticking point save up for longer or buy pre loved.
It's the watch you are buying not the price.

Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk
It's a bit of both isn't it. You might fancy a new parka jacket that costs £200. You see a sage green one in the sale for £100, and a rust coloured one for £150. The blue one is still full price. You like all the colours, so you probably buy the least expensive one. There's not many people to whom "if you need to ask the price, you can't afford it" doesn't apply. Price is always a serious consideration, in my opinion. :)
These users thanked the author JAFO for the post:
A1soknownas
User avatar
A1soknownas
Senior Guru
Senior Guru
Posts: 556
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:40 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by A1soknownas »

Alex r wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:46 pm It's the watch you are buying not the price.
Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk
I have a differing view on this. In most cases both the watch and price will always be included in a decision. If price isn't that's a great position to be in.

Price will generally have in impact on demand amongst other factors. Whilst offering great quality and value without a voucher, there are increasingly other options in the space around £1k, particularly with microbrands and other divers. I think the demand elasticity of a CW would be high in general for their regular range.

An example is the Graphite C60 for £640 on a bracelet compared to say a standard C60 for £915 which sold out immediately. Although limited, I doubt it would have sold at the same pace if it was £900+ as there are other options.

The exception for CW would be the Bel Canto, but then again although it was a higher price and no discount, there are no other equivalents at that value so the demand change would be low if the price increased. CW do not have this privilege across the whole range so need to be conscious of continuing to offer the very best in an affordable space against all competition which is becoming increasingly harder.
These users thanked the author A1soknownas for the post:
JAFO
User avatar
rkovars
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 2133
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:56 pm
CW-watches: 5
Location: New England, US

Re: Something you should know

Post by rkovars »

JAFO wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:47 pm
CW is different from an AD, where the AD has room to give a discount from the stated watch price, and potential buyers regularly discuss the likelihood of a discount from an AD. With on-line sellers there is virtually no possibility of making a deal. Sellers shouldn't take goodwill for granted. UK buyers are used to VAT, but I am sure US buyers are particularly sensitive to the the $800 cut-off point for import taxes, and I am sure the absence of a discount voucher will be even more sharply felt. Maybe the occasional sale, assuming they continue will be even more popular. The discount against the new price will be more meaningful, as there is no voucher alternative. :)
I've largely stayed out of this debate because I am having trouble sorting my thoughts on the matter. I can see the benefits and the negatives as well. Your point here about the US is one of the sticking points in my thinking. The import duty has been an ongoing problem in the US. Buyers don't know the actual price of the watch until they get the final bill from DHL. Without having the promised system in place of paying duty up front or having US distribution so that US buyers don't have to worry about duty, in my opinion, makes removing the voucher putting the cart before the horse.

I don't think that CW is in a position to lose any sales. Every sale counts. I have first hand knowledge and have read many more anecdotes of people in the US either being surprised by the duty owed and left soured or refusing to pay and having the goods go back for a refund. In the end I guess that this is more of an issue of being up front on pricing in the US than the vouchers themselves. But I always looked at the vouchers as CW picking up the tab for import duty because they knew there was an issue. I have first hand experience here where my Super Compressor nearly got returned because of a duty issue (it was a gift from my wife so I didn't know it was coming or I could have helped).

This is also exacerbated by the import duty schedule itself where you never really know what you are going to owe. Unlike VAT, it isn't a flat thing. It has to be calculated using a set of rules that are at best difficult to navigate for a logistics professional let alone a lone individual. This is evident by the 100s of companies in the US that 'specialize' in importing goods.

It is fine for someone in the UK to say the voucher doesn't matter but for the rest of the world it is a different story I think. Other brands have figured this out (Farer and WatchGecko to name two) where the price you pay is the price you pay. Duty is included in the final sale price.

I also agree that the sales will probably be more popular and that we may even see slight discounts on models that wouldn't have traditionally been offered in the sales.

I also agree that they could promote some sort of system for their most loyal customers to get some discounts. Giving some back to your most loyal customers seems like good business to me. I never understood why the voucher codes weren't unique and single use. Both of these are possible. I get codes in this manner all of the time. I could even see them being tied to your user account so only that account could use the code.
These users thanked the author rkovars for the post (total 4):
JasperCatgolfjunkythomcat00JAFO
"The cure for anything is salt water - tears, sweat and the sea."
Isak Dinesen
Current CW = C65 Trident GMT, C65 Dartmouth, C60 Trident Ombré LE, C65 Super Compressor, C63 Ukraine LE
Pre-order = C63 Forum LE, Momentum Sea Quartz 30
User avatar
rkovars
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 2133
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:56 pm
CW-watches: 5
Location: New England, US

Re: Something you should know

Post by rkovars »

A1soknownas wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:34 pm
An example is the Graphite C60 for £640 on a bracelet compared to say a standard C60 for £915 which sold out immediately. Although limited, I doubt it would have sold at the same pace if it was £900+ as there are other options.
I agree with this. The Ombré held on for a long time (almost a year to my recollection with some being offered in a Jan sale at discount). They were even a slight premium over the standard C60 at the time. Undoubtedly the looks of this one struck a chord and the timing might have helped too (halo from Bel Canto) but the price had to be a factor in the sellout speed as well.
"The cure for anything is salt water - tears, sweat and the sea."
Isak Dinesen
Current CW = C65 Trident GMT, C65 Dartmouth, C60 Trident Ombré LE, C65 Super Compressor, C63 Ukraine LE
Pre-order = C63 Forum LE, Momentum Sea Quartz 30
rc51owner
Senior
Senior
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:46 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by rc51owner »

Being ignorant that you have to pay duty on imported goods isn't CW's problem. It is the buyers responsibility to pay to import something. I certainly hope that CW doesn't start pricing things inclusive of duty, because what I might pay for duty to Canada will certainly be different than what someone elsewhere in the world might have to pay. I, as an importer, am also responsible for sales taxes on goods I bring in. Obviously some items are assessed duty and taxes at different rates.

Cheers,

M
These users thanked the author rc51owner for the post (total 2):
ViognierYoobaldy
User avatar
rkovars
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 2133
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:56 pm
CW-watches: 5
Location: New England, US

Re: Something you should know

Post by rkovars »

rc51owner wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 pm Being ignorant that you have to pay duty on imported goods isn't CW's problem. It is the buyers responsibility to pay to import something. I certainly hope that CW doesn't start pricing things inclusive of duty, because what I might pay for duty to Canada will certainly be different than what someone elsewhere in the world might have to pay. I, as an importer, am also responsible for sales taxes on goods I bring in. Obviously some items are assessed duty and taxes at different rates.

Cheers,

M
We aren't saying one price for all. Just that the sale price is what you pay. Of course your price in Canada would be different. But you shouldn't have to worry about import duty. You Canadian price should be inclusive of the duty you would have to pay. No surprises. It is CWs problem because it is a perception problem. Especially when other brands have figured it out.
"The cure for anything is salt water - tears, sweat and the sea."
Isak Dinesen
Current CW = C65 Trident GMT, C65 Dartmouth, C60 Trident Ombré LE, C65 Super Compressor, C63 Ukraine LE
Pre-order = C63 Forum LE, Momentum Sea Quartz 30
rc51owner
Senior
Senior
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:46 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by rc51owner »

rkovars wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:01 pm
rc51owner wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 pm Being ignorant that you have to pay duty on imported goods isn't CW's problem. It is the buyers responsibility to pay to import something. I certainly hope that CW doesn't start pricing things inclusive of duty, because what I might pay for duty to Canada will certainly be different than what someone elsewhere in the world might have to pay. I, as an importer, am also responsible for sales taxes on goods I bring in. Obviously some items are assessed duty and taxes at different rates.

Cheers,

M
We aren't saying one price for all. Just that the sale price is what you pay. Of course your price in Canada would be different. But you shouldn't have to worry about import duty. You Canadian price should be inclusive of the duty you would have to pay. No surprises. It is CWs problem because it is a perception problem. Especially when other brands have figured it out.
Except paying for it in GBP is cheaper than paying in CAD so until CW enforce paying in the currency of your country, the wise buyer will pay in Pounds (don't forget that the UK price includes Vat at 20%).

I don't get why you think I shouldn't have to worry about paying the duty? It has to be paid and I know this when I buy goods overseas. It isn't a "surprise" unless you are ignorant of the process of importing goods from other countries. Why should CW have to know the duty for all the countries of the world?

Cheers,

M
User avatar
rkovars
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 2133
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:56 pm
CW-watches: 5
Location: New England, US

Re: Something you should know

Post by rkovars »

rc51owner wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:13 pm
rkovars wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:01 pm
rc51owner wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 pm Being ignorant that you have to pay duty on imported goods isn't CW's problem. It is the buyers responsibility to pay to import something. I certainly hope that CW doesn't start pricing things inclusive of duty, because what I might pay for duty to Canada will certainly be different than what someone elsewhere in the world might have to pay. I, as an importer, am also responsible for sales taxes on goods I bring in. Obviously some items are assessed duty and taxes at different rates.

Cheers,

M
We aren't saying one price for all. Just that the sale price is what you pay. Of course your price in Canada would be different. But you shouldn't have to worry about import duty. You Canadian price should be inclusive of the duty you would have to pay. No surprises. It is CWs problem because it is a perception problem. Especially when other brands have figured it out.
Except paying for it in GBP is cheaper than paying in CAD so until CW enforce paying in the currency of your country, the wise buyer will pay in Pounds (don't forget that the UK price includes Vat at 20%).

Cheers,

M
And they could always leave that option open. Of course, if you are savvy enough to do that then you would know if/when you would owe duty. I paid for my LE this way so I would avoid duty altogether.
"The cure for anything is salt water - tears, sweat and the sea."
Isak Dinesen
Current CW = C65 Trident GMT, C65 Dartmouth, C60 Trident Ombré LE, C65 Super Compressor, C63 Ukraine LE
Pre-order = C63 Forum LE, Momentum Sea Quartz 30
rc51owner
Senior
Senior
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:46 pm

Re: Something you should know

Post by rc51owner »

@rkovars we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic. Thanks for sharing (a dissenting) view to mine. Have a great day.

Cheers,

M
User avatar
Alex r
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 1223
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:58 pm
CW-watches: 3
Location: York uk

Re: Something you should know

Post by Alex r »


A1soknownas wrote:
Alex r wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:46 pm It's the watch you are buying not the price.
Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk
I have a differing view on this. In most cases both the watch and price will always be included in a decision. If price isn't that's a great position to be in.


I Agree Price is always a consideration in any purchase. I just ment that with so much choice in the market at the moment I would sooner buy a watch I liked rather than a watch I was unsure of regardless of the discount.

Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk
User avatar
rkovars
Senior Forumgod
Senior Forumgod
Posts: 2133
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:56 pm
CW-watches: 5
Location: New England, US

Re: Something you should know

Post by rkovars »

rc51owner wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:13 pm
I don't get why you think I shouldn't have to worry about paying the duty? It has to be paid and I know this when I buy goods overseas. It isn't a "surprise" unless you are ignorant of the process of importing goods from other countries. Why should CW have to know the duty for all the countries of the world?

Cheers,

M
The average consumer in the US doesn't think this way. Most people in the US don't import anything. Because the US is such a large market most companies have a presence here and the average person doesn't deal with importing goods. The US system is set up for large scale importers which also contributes to the issues.

CW being an online brand is uniquely aware of the buying experience. It doesn't matter whose fault it is or what the reason was if a sale experience is bad they have lost a sale/customer. This is bad for the brand in the long term. They have stated publicly that the US is now their biggest market. They can't ignore the issue. Right here on this very forum import duty has been called extortion (incorrectly I might add).

While I agree that consumers should be better educated every customer is a potential ambassador for the brand and every bad experience is ground lost in that regard. Factor in the amplification by social media of bad experiences and a business has no choice but to take note.
These users thanked the author rkovars for the post (total 3):
rc51ownerJAFOYoobaldy
"The cure for anything is salt water - tears, sweat and the sea."
Isak Dinesen
Current CW = C65 Trident GMT, C65 Dartmouth, C60 Trident Ombré LE, C65 Super Compressor, C63 Ukraine LE
Pre-order = C63 Forum LE, Momentum Sea Quartz 30