UPDATE UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year - A Happy Ending

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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by exHowfener »

Well, I'll declare myself firmly in the "they should honour the 60/60" camp. You can't change the rules retrospectively. I get the car servicing comparison, but that's made very clear when you buy a car - jobs need doing by time or mileage. If CW want to insist on service intervals, fair enough for new purchases, but from your case it seems a bit vague; 3 years or 4?
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by NeWard »

exHowfener wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:00 pm Well, I'll declare myself firmly in the "they should honour the 60/60" camp. You can't change the rules retrospectively. I get the car servicing comparison, but that's made very clear when you buy a car - jobs need doing by time or mileage. If CW want to insist on service intervals, fair enough for new purchases, but from your case it seems a bit vague; 3 years or 4?
Starting on May 2019 all Christopher Ward watches must get serviced by CW itself during the interval of 3rd-4th year after purchase in order to qualify the 60/60 guarantee they promised. If you didn't have your watch serviced exclusively by CW by the latest 4th year after your original purchase date, your 5th year's 60/60 CW guarantee will be disqualified and if anything happens with your watch you will have to pay for it to get serviced, even if your watch is within the last 12 months of the 60/60 guarantee.

As for anyone else reading this, I keep on seeing the car service comparison so I will make a clear example here. Say for instance you bought a car that came with a 10 year bumper to bumper guarantee 8 years ago directly from a car manufacturer, at the time of purchasing the car your owner's manual and the manufacturer's website clearly stated that you get a full 10 year bumper to bumper guarantee. After the 8th year of your car purchase the manufacturer now revised their 10 year bumper to bumper guarantee for whatever reason down to a 5 year guarantee. This change happened 3 years after you purchased your car from this company that promised the 10 year warranty.

Now during the 8th year of your car ownership your drivetrain developed a problem that stopped the car from moving at all, you went to the car manufacturer asking them to honor your 10 year bumper to bumper guarantee to fix the car. Your car manufacturer says “No because we changed this policy from a 10 year guarantee down to a 5 year one, and we are denying to service your car because we are applying this rule retroactively to all the cars we sold in the past, even if you bought your car 3 years before we came out with this rule."

What would you do then? Because that person in my analogy is exactly whats happening with me.
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Re: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32

Post by H0rati0 »

NeWard wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:40 pm
Yet they will not upheld the original promises. I have emailed my situation to both of the three founders on two occasions: Mike France and Peter Ellis but nobody ever replied my inquiries. I have the head of CW customer service team to deny my request that they honor the 60/60 guarantee, I ask myself what more can I do at this point anymore? It's clear what Christopher Ward's intention at this point, or am I missing something? :( :( :(
You settle down and write a polite letter explaining the whole situation, particularly the retroactive change in conditions and that you believe the guarantee contract should be honoured. Further, again politely, that if you do not hear in the affirmative within 10 days you will be handing the matter to your solicitors.

Then you send to Mike France by registered post.

As a separate matter, I too believe the 60/60 is now downright ingenuous - the warranty period is maximum 48 months as any service will in itself be guaranteed for at least 12 months.

Personally, I have never serviced any watch at 3-4 years: that smacks of a dentist pitching his six monthly checkup - got to keep that recurring revenue flowing..... My watches get a service when they do not perform to satisfaction, eg one of mine is 20 years old, not yet serviced and still running to COSC as I expect it to. While I admit that particular is not worn that often, it would makes no difference if it was. THAT is what a proper old fashioned watchmaker will tell you - if you know him well enough.
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Re: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32

Post by Mikkei4 »

H0rati0 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:48 pm
NeWard wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:40 pm
Yet they will not upheld the original promises. I have emailed my situation to both of the three founders on two occasions: Mike France and Peter Ellis but nobody ever replied my inquiries. I have the head of CW customer service team to deny my request that they honor the 60/60 guarantee, I ask myself what more can I do at this point anymore? It's clear what Christopher Ward's intention at this point, or am I missing something? :( :( :(
You settle down and write a polite letter explaining the whole situation, particularly the retroactive change in conditions and that you believe the guarantee contract should be honoured. Further, again politely, that if you do not hear in the affirmative within 10 days you will be handing the matter to your solicitors.

Then you send to Mike France by registered post.

As a separate matter, I too believe the 60/60 is now downright ingenuous - the warranty period is maximum 48 months as any service will in itself be guaranteed for at least 12 months.

Personally, I have never serviced any watch at 3-4 years: that smacks of a dentist pitching his six monthly checkup - got to keep that recurring revenue flowing..... My watches get a service when they do not perform to satisfaction, eg one of mine is 20 years old, not yet serviced and still running to COSC as I expect it to. While I admit that particular is not worn that often, it would makes no difference if it was. THAT is what a proper old fashioned watchmaker will tell you - if you know him well enough.
Spot on, every word regarding the letter to Mike France and servicing.

There must be plenty of watches owned by forum members that haven't been serviced every 3-4 years that are still working perfectly. I can include my own standard Mk2 C60 Trident bought in Jan 2015 amongst them.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by Bounce »

I would personally send a registered letter & threaten to take it to the small claims court for breach of contract.

Also point out to them that you are a member of a number of Forums & are going to post about their breach of contract on them.

The five year warranty was in place when the watch was purchased & cannot be changed retrospectively.

Speak to a Solicitor & get their take on it, I think you will find under UK law you have certain rights & a five year warranty cannot become a 4 year warranty just because they they have a change of heart.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS »

^^^^ NB> It is worth noting and remembering that NeWard is in the USA.

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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by H0rati0 »

Bahnstormer_vRS wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:20 pm ^^^^ NB> It is worth noting and remembering that NeWard is in the USA.

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ahh, a little trickier, but still do-able to use a UK solicitor if he really wants to pursue.

Given Neward's currently straitened position, he can defer actual legal action for at least three years (maybe six, but a lawyer will know exactly) given that he is aware of the possible dispute. Bonus: as not UK resident he doesn't pay VAT on legal fees - not that this would be an expensive matter.

Is there a lawyer in the house?
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by jkbarnes »

This has been an interesting thread to follow. As I see it, there are three separate but related issues here:
  • Should CW honor the full 5 year warranty despite the lack of servicing?
  • Must the warranty be honored is the current owner is NOT the original purchaser and lacks any of the paperwork?
  • What’s the right thing to do?
The first one seems pretty cut and dry to me. I don’t see how CW can retroactively change the terms of a guarantee after the purchase of a watch. The change in terms won’t keep me from buying a CW, but I don’t consider it a 5 year guarantee.

The second one is where it gets vague for me. I don’t know what the relevant law is or guarantee/warranty policies in general. I can understand the rational for NOT honoring the guarantee/warranty for a second owner who lacks documentation.

As for the third, given that CW has info on the purchase and it’s their in house movement, one would think they’d want to do right by it and fix it under warranty, or at a minimum cover the work minus the cost of a service.

But I’m not a business owner, so what do I know.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by paw3001 »

Anyone else think the 60/60 is now a joke if it requires a service at year 3 or 4 to be valid!

It is basically a 3 warranty and a bit of smoke and mirrors to my eyes with regards T&C. A warranty should not require a service to remain valid…I wonder if this is allowed under consumer laws?

Don’t think Rolex or JLC require this term in their 5 and 7 year warranties!

I would certainly challenger CW to be a bit more understanding as they know the watch is under warranty whether you have the paper or not and the service requirement is a crock to weasel out of doing the right thing.

A big negative on their supposedly great customer service reputation.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by JWG »

Their customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

I bought a watch (Dartmouth) and straps in September after visiting the showroom. It was very enjoyable and I had no complaints. The items were taken after purchase.

Two days later the exact same items were delivered to me by courier.
I emailed them straight away to make them aware of their mistake

I heard nothing from them for a week so phoned. I was thanked for my honesty and sent a plastic envelope to pack the erroneously sent order to take to the Post Office, which I did.

I've heard nothing from them since to say they've received the items. The Royal Mail tracking suggests that they have.

I'm not expecting a medal for being honest but some sort of acknowledgement that they'd received the package would have been nice.

I doubt I'll be buying anything else from them, which I think is kind of sad.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by Bounce »

Bahnstormer_vRS wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:20 pm ^^^^ NB> It is worth noting and remembering that NeWard is in the USA.

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I don't think it should matter where you are based a 5 year warranty is a 5 year warranty full stop.

The power of Forums is quite a powerful tool I have found.

I had an Oris diver in blue & after about 4 years ownership the dial started to fade & turn an orange/brown colour, I contacted Oris C/S & sent them pics & an explanation.

Their response was the watch is only covered by a 2 year warranty & unfortunately I would have to pay for a dial replacement.

I replied & told them that I was an active member of a number of watch forums & that I would highlight the poor quality of the product that Oris was selling these days, I told them I would post pictures & of my watch for everyone to see.

I was contacted by the head of C/S a day later & asked to return the watch for a dial replacement FOC.

I received the watch back about 6 weeks later fully serviced with a new dial & a new bezel as well.

Threats do sometimes work with businesses I have found, nobody likes bad publicity.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by H0rati0 »

jkbarnes wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:44 pm This has been an interesting thread to follow. As I see it, there are three separate but related issues here:
  • Should CW honor the full 5 year warranty despite the lack of servicing?
  • Must the warranty be honored is the current owner is NOT the original purchaser and lacks any of the paperwork?
  • What’s the right thing to do?
The first one seems pretty cut and dry to me. I don’t see how CW can retroactively change the terms of a guarantee after the purchase of a watch. The change in terms won’t keep me from buying a CW, but I don’t consider it a 5 year guarantee.

The second one is where it gets vague for me. I don’t know what the relevant law is or guarantee/warranty policies in general. I can understand the rational for NOT honoring the guarantee/warranty for a second owner who lacks documentation.

As for the third, given that CW has info on the purchase and it’s their in house movement, one would think they’d want to do right by it and fix it under warranty, or at a minimum cover the work minus the cost of a service.

But I’m not a business owner, so what do I know.
Andrew

I think you have put it in a nutshell quite correctly.

Contractually, they offered a 5 year guarantee (no mention of a conditional service) at the time of purchase and that is binding, I believe.

CW have historically made it clear that the guarantee is transferable. They do not track owners but they know the date of sale. So should be no impediment there either.

The movement (whether SH21 or not) as supplied seems to have failed and the right thing to do would be to repair/replace under guarantee. I really cannot see why they want to be difficult, it is not really a big deal and to not do the "right thing" potentially causes damaging exposure.

I am not a lawyer but have had quite a lot of "entanglement" over the years so I suspect CW are on very poor ground legally, though for Neward being Stateside it's more awkward.

I do wish him luck, persistence and patience are key as practically speaking, he really has to cajole them rather than go legal.

nik
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by jkbarnes »

H0rati0 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:26 pm CW have historically made it clear that the guarantee is transferable. They do not track owners but they know the date of sale. So should be no impediment there either.
I see that as the vague part. Do they put terms on the transferability, like having the paperwork? Do other watch manufactures put terms on the transferability? Do grey market sales complicate all this (not that that’s relevant to CW sales) I only wonder because one sees reference to “box & papers” in sales description.

On a side note, many years ago the transmission on my car failed within weeks of the expiration of the warranty. The dealer told us that while the warranty was expired, this was an item that was reasonably expected to last the lifetime of the car. Given how close to the warranty expiration that it was, the dealer actually went to bat for us with Honda America, arguing the transmission should be replaced under warranty! Honda America offered a rebuilt transmission for free. All we had to pay was the shipping cost to the dealership. I found that to be a very reasonable offer from Honda America.

I have to imagine there’s some kind of middle ground that CW could offer here, like a prorated charge for the fix maybe. Perhaps cover the cost of most of the repair with the OP being asked to cover what would be the cost of a normal service. Everybody is happy and CW looks good for working with the customer.
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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS »

^^^^ @Bounce - my mention that NeWard is in the USA was made, to assist when comments are made as to the course, or courses, of action available to him.

Apologies for any ambiguity.

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Re: UPDATE: Should I sell my stuck C60 600 Pro COSC SH21 Red Bezel 1 of 32 - 60/60 Guarantee denied at 5th Year

Post by Bounce »

Bahnstormer_vRS wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:37 pm ^^^^ @Bounce - my mention that NeWard is in the USA was made, to assist when comments are made as to the course, or courses, of action available to him.

Apologies for any ambiguity.

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Sorry Guy, my mistake I thought you meant the warranty was lessened by being in the USA. :oops:
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