SH21.2

David. S · Post by **David. S** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:24 am

So, it's official, a 2nd generation of the SH21 movement....
Which direction do we think this is going?

I'll start the ball rolling with a scaled-down version to fit the Sealander.......

David.

JasperCat · Post by **JasperCat** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:55 am

How about jumping hour complication… which would (possibly) allow connection to the Bel Canto chime mechanism

More seriously… GMT complication would be useful

I agree that a smaller version would allow them to move it down the size ranges…

NationOfLaws · Post by **NationOfLaws** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:57 am

Where was it announced?

OllyW · Post by **OllyW** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:04 am

NationOfLaws wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:57 am Where was it announced?

There’s a link to the interview with Mike France in this thread…
general-discussion/bel-canto-on-watchfi ... 728e895247

Lavaine · Post by **Lavaine** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:23 am

A big deal was made of the fact that the SH21 was designed as a tractor movement that could support different complications. CW has never really capitalized on this aspect of the design, leading me to think that a second gen movement might sacrifice some of this functionality for a smaller, thinner more versatile movement. The trend away from large watches does not bode well for the current SH21.

David. S · Post by **David. S** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:13 am

Lavaine wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:23 am A big deal was made of the fact that the SH21 was designed as a tractor movement that could support different complications. CW has never really capitalized on this aspect of the design, leading me to think that a second gen movement might sacrifice some of this functionality for a smaller, thinner more versatile movement. The trend away from large watches does not bode well for the current SH21.

A smaller version seems logical..
It seems strange that CW would have a range as popular as the Sealander, and a great movement that isn't compatible.

David.

JasperCat · Post by **JasperCat** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:30 am

The smaller/lighter variation does indeed make sense… it would allow them to (potentially) differentiate withan “in house”, 5 day power reserve, super reliable movement and put it in a much wider range of their watches

They should still add a GMT though too

StrappedUp · Post by **StrappedUp** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:05 am

For me, some of the SH21 finishing has been right up there especially given the price and I for one would absolutely love to own one.
It's the pinnacle of CW watchmaking imo, so hopefully this revision will allow them to fit it in a smaller case size and bring it within the reach of a wider range of buyers.
Doesn't have to be tiny to fit smaller diameter watches as Oris have proven with their Cal 400.

What I would give to have something like a slimmed-down C1 Powerglow on my wrist!

albionphoto · Post by **albionphoto** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:06 pm

A smaller version with a 60 hour power reserve would make sense. It could go in a wider range of case sizes and still differentiate them from the SW200-1/2824 crowd.

timor54 · Post by **timor54** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:05 pm

Oris with their in-house calibre are the nearest analogy I know of for the future direction of SH21 developments. They started with the 11x calibre which were big and chunky with a limited number of functions which in overly simplistic terms match the SH21 movement variations. They then spent years, how many is unknown, developing the smaller Calibre 400 which is physically almost a drop-in replacement for the SW200/ETA2824. It's also rumoured/speculated to be a co-development with a third party and some or all of the manufacturing is possibly outsourced.

Basically, a very large undertaking for a company the size of Oris. The Oris product range is now showing the outcome of these developments with the Calibre 11x having almost disappeared and their premium watches using the Calibre 400. However, after a couple of years this still is a time only calibre with small second and pointer date options.

The idea that CW could do something similar to Calibre 400 in the timescales being talked about is optimistic in my opinion. I can remember MF talking a year or two ago about their desire to produce a traveller GMT version of the SH21, although I can't remember the video when this was said. I would imagine that the engineering task of implementing an independent hour hand together with a GMT hand option on the existing SH21 calibre would be more achievable in the short term.

I would like to be proved wrong though!

albionphoto · Post by **albionphoto** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:54 pm

timor54 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:05 pm Oris with their in-house calibre are the nearest analogy I know of for the future direction of SH21 developments. They started with the 11x calibre which were big and chunky with a limited number of functions which in overly simplistic terms match the SH21 movement variations. They then spent years, how many is unknown, developing the smaller Calibre 400 which is physically almost a drop-in replacement for the SW200/ETA2824. It's also rumoured/speculated to be a co-development with a third party and some or all of the manufacturing is possibly outsourced.

Basically, a very large undertaking for a company the size of Oris. The Oris product range is now showing the outcome of these developments with the Calibre 11x having almost disappeared and their premium watches using the Calibre 400. However, after a couple of years this still is a time only calibre with small second and pointer date options.

The idea that CW could do something similar to Calibre 400 in the timescales being talked about is optimistic in my opinion. I can remember MF talking a year or two ago about their desire to produce a traveller GMT version of the SH21, although I can't remember the video when this was said. I would imagine that the engineering task of implementing an independent hour hand together with a GMT hand option on the existing SH21 calibre would be more achievable in the short term.

I would like to be proved wrong though!

As an FYI, Oris have said that the Calibre 400 is not manufactured in-house. They do claim that it was developed by themselves but whether they had help or not is unknown. Help could be as trivial as choosing the materials for specific parts or significant design/development input, etc and I don't think it matters. Calibre 400 has allowed Oris to raise prices in a way SH21 has not done for CW. Part of that is the pricing model but it would be good for CW if SH21 2 could shift their prices out of the "value brand" black hole they are getting closer too.
A traveller GMT would be nice now that the Miyota 9075 is available. That movement will let lower price brands eat the GMT market alive if the established players aren't careful. Developing a traveller GMT module on an existing base does seem to be very challenging though. This is on CW's radar for sure but executing it at the right quality/reliability/price is an issue. Can they do an upcharge for traveller verses office? As a brand they'd have to, as a customer I might sulk... (and there will be sulking on the forum if this happens).

StrappedUp · Post by **StrappedUp** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:04 pm

timor54 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:05 pm They then spent years, how many is unknown, developing the smaller Calibre 400 which is physically almost a drop-in replacement for the SW200/ETA2824. It's also rumoured/speculated to be a co-development with a third party and some or all of the manufacturing is possibly outsourced.

The diameter difference between the quoted calibres is almost 4.5mm which is pretty huge in watchmaking terms. Sizewise, the Cal 400 looks so much better through an exhibition caseback than an ETA/Sellita, so I hope CW don't shrink SH21 down too much, certainly not to the size of the quoted movements.
Oris have squeezed this into a 38mm case so far, so that would probably do CW I should think.

asqwerth · Post by **asqwerth** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:40 pm

StrappedUp wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:04 pm
timor54 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:05 pm They then spent years, how many is unknown, developing the smaller Calibre 400 which is physically almost a drop-in replacement for the SW200/ETA2824. It's also rumoured/speculated to be a co-development with a third party and some or all of the manufacturing is possibly outsourced.
The diameter difference between the quoted calibres is almost 4.5mm which is pretty huge in watchmaking terms. ......
Oris have squeezed this into a 38mm case so far, so that would probably do CW I should think.

Yep, not a drop-in replacement at all. The ETA 2824/2982 is small enough to fit in women's automatic watches that are 34mm or smaller (I think I've seen 32mm).

But I agree that if the SH21.2 can be made around the size of the Cal 400, that would be great. Even a reduction to 72 hours PR would still be excellent. Right now, even though the SH21 can fit in a 40mm watch, it's just too chunky once you include the rotor.

rkovars · Post by **rkovars** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:49 pm

asqwerth wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:40 pm
StrappedUp wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:04 pm
timor54 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:05 pm They then spent years, how many is unknown, developing the smaller Calibre 400 which is physically almost a drop-in replacement for the SW200/ETA2824. It's also rumoured/speculated to be a co-development with a third party and some or all of the manufacturing is possibly outsourced.
The diameter difference between the quoted calibres is almost 4.5mm which is pretty huge in watchmaking terms. ......
Oris have squeezed this into a 38mm case so far, so that would probably do CW I should think.
Yep, not a drop-in replacement at all. The ETA 2824/2982 is small enough to fit in women's automatic watches that are 34mm or smaller (I think I've seen 32mm).

But I agree that if the SH21.2 can be made around the size of the Cal 400, that would be great. Even a reduction to 72 hours PR would still be excellent. Right now, even though the SH21 can fit in a 40mm watch, it's just too chunky once you include the rotor.

A quick peruse through the archive showed 40mm wide by 12.8 thick was the smallest watch it has gone into. Everything else was larger. Getting the thickness down would help a lot. The 2824 is 25.6mm in diameter. They probably don't need to go that low. If they want one movement for everything though the SH21.2 would have to fit down to 36 at least.

Amor Vincit Omnia · Post by **Amor Vincit Omnia** » Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 pm

^^^ I think some of the hand-wound C8 were under 12mm, and the C9SS is 12.3

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