Ok, the part mentioned here that “sometimes DHL can refund duties directly” is factually incorrect. That cannot happen as the buyer (you, me, anyone in the US or any other country importing a product) is… drumroll, please…. NOT (!!!!!!!!!!) the IMPORTER OF RECORD. Not shouting, just making it clear and obvious that WE as buyers are not the payer of the duty. The shipper is, in this case Christopher Ward.

Let’s google it, shall we?

“Delivered Duty Paid (DDP) is an Incoterms rule that places the majority of the responsibility for delivering goods on the seller:
· Responsibilities

The seller is responsible for all costs and risks associated with delivering the goods to the agreed-upon destination, including:

· Export and import clearance.

· Customs handling fees.

· Duties and taxes.

· Inland transport.

· Packaging and wrapping.

· International freight.
·
· When risk and costs transfer:

The seller transfers risk and costs to the buyer when the goods are ready for unloading at the destination.

· Documentation:

The seller must provide the buyer with any documents needed to take over the goods.

· Liability:
The seller is responsible for damage or loss in transit.

DDP is one of 11 Incoterms rules set by the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC). Incoterms rules create legal obligations for the buyer and seller, so it's important to understand the rules carefully before including them in a sale contract.

Used in sea freight and air freight importing, when shipping under this Incoterm, the maximum responsibility is placed on the seller. DDP can be risky since sellers are responsible for the delivery and may lack local destination knowledge and requirements.”

Again, imagine you’re buying that a new Bel Canto watch, the 12 X, or something else costing several thousand dollars/pounds/euros. Your duty bill is around $400 let’s say.

The watch arrives broken and doesn’t work, or it’s damaged in some other way like scratches on the sapphire – could be anything. You mean to tell me that the CW policy on that is “tough noogies, we won’t refund that $400?”. If that is the case, good luck selling anything to US buyers again where they’re on the hook for duties No Matter What.

CW says they don’t have the tools to ask for the duties back. What does that mean exactly? It requires someone from CW CS to reach out to DHL – maybe via a local customs broker/forwarder although DHL can also do most of those functions in the UK I imagine – and fill out the Duty Drawback form. You may not get the money back instantly, but you will if the shipment came back to the UK and never was an official imported item. You can refund the customer who will be happy, and then US customs (via DHL), will repay those duties when the claim has been processed. You’ll be “out of pocket” for the duty until you get the refund, that’s true, but you’ll totally eliminate this issue. At worst, you’ll have a few grand in outstanding duties pending with customs at a time? It’s a lack of foresight, understanding, and frankly, basic customer service to have the stance they have displayed this far. Just assign a staff member to do this and the issue will vanish overnight. I know they can afford it.

Ooopsidoo… Before starting, ignorance is not an excuse in this instance. Was it stated in your purchase agreement that CWL will not be able to refund custom/duty charges?

Even then, CWL has to pay attention here and, IMO, revisit their policy regarding paying customs/duty charges on behalf of the customer. Sinn did not when I purchased my watches from them. Same for Sakura watches. Just let the customer know, as Sinn customer service did in my case, that the charges do not include any customs/duty charges that may be incurred. CWL could even provide an estimate with the disclaimer that it could be a bit different. In this way, the customer knows what to expect.

I can well imagine a watch being held pending custom/duty payments and the customer baulking at the extra charge, especially if not anticipated, opting out of the purchase. The watch is then returned to CWL.

maclink wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:04 pm Ooopsidoo… Before starting, ignorance is not an excuse in this instance. Was it stated in your purchase agreement that CWL will not be able to refund custom/duty charges?

Even then, CWL has to pay attention here and, IMO, revisit their policy regarding paying customs/duty charges on behalf of the customer. Sinn did not when I purchased my watches from them. Same for Sakura watches. Just let the customer know, as Sinn customer service did in my case, that the charges do not include any customs/duty charges that may be incurred. CWL could even provide an estimate with the disclaimer that it could be a bit different. In this way, the customer knows what to expect.

I can well imagine a watch being held pending custom/duty payments and the customer baulking at the extra charge, especially if not anticipated, opting out of the purchase. The watch is then returned to CWL.

That is how CW used to do it but that system wasn't without its own issues.

I was personally about 50/50 with shipments getting stuck in customs. The way the system was supposed to work is that CW would transmit all of the worksheets electronically to DHL daily. When this worked it was great. But far too often either the files were lost by DHL or the person working didn't know where to look and DHL would come looking to you for the paperwork. CW would often sort it but sometimes they didn't. And if there was a delay you could get hit with DHL storage fees in addition to the duty charges.

People not recognizing that duty would be owed (even though CW mentioned this in many different places) also generated complaints. Thus the current system was born.

CW might be in a place where shipments to the US are too high to handle on a package by package basis but too low to have CONUS distribution and logistics set up. Don't know. But it is clear that DHL is still dropping the ball on a regular basis (they are still asking some customers for import information) and CW never really had a plan in place for returns when the system changed over.

maclink wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:04 pm Ooopsidoo… Before starting, ignorance is not an excuse in this instance. Was it stated in your purchase agreement that CWL will not be able to refund custom/duty charges?

Even then, CWL has to pay attention here and, IMO, revisit their policy regarding paying customs/duty charges on behalf of the customer. Sinn did not when I purchased my watches from them. Same for Sakura watches. Just let the customer know, as Sinn customer service did in my case, that the charges do not include any customs/duty charges that may be incurred. CWL could even provide an estimate with the disclaimer that it could be a bit different. In this way, the customer knows what to expect.

I can well imagine a watch being held pending custom/duty payments and the customer baulking at the extra charge, especially if not anticipated, opting out of the purchase. The watch is then returned to CWL.

FWIW- A few days ago I brought this topic to the attention of Mike France who has promised to look into the existing policy and procedures around this subject and get back to me. I will be happy to add his comments when I get his considered response.

Presumably once CW has a US presence (showroom) then this may become a non issue if returns can be channeled through it?

Otherwise then sounds very frustrating.

Jkpa wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:52 pm Again, imagine you’re buying that a new Bel Canto watch, the 12 X, or something else costing several thousand dollars/pounds/euros. Your duty bill is around $400 let’s say.

The watch arrives broken and doesn’t work, or it’s damaged in some other way like scratches on the sapphire – could be anything. You mean to tell me that the CW policy on that is “tough noogies, we won’t refund that $400?”. If that is the case, good luck selling anything to US buyers again where they’re on the hook for duties No Matter What.

CW says they don’t have the tools to ask for the duties back. What does that mean exactly? It requires someone from CW CS to reach out to DHL...You’ll be “out of pocket” for the duty until you get the refund, that’s true, but you’ll totally eliminate this issue. At worst, you’ll have a few grand in outstanding duties pending with customs at a time? It’s a lack of foresight, understanding, and frankly, basic customer service to have the stance they have displayed this far. Just assign a staff member to do this and the issue will vanish overnight. I know they can afford it.

I spoke with my brother who is an attorney and while this is not his area of expertise, he shared the following:

- CW sells into the USA so they need to at least follow USA laws.

- The Import Duty Fee is a government fee, not a CW fee, so CW cannot claim that they will not "return" it. CW are simply the conduit for collecting the fee and handing it over to the government (or a handler such as DHL who hands the fee over to the US government).

- It is similar to State/Local taxes in the USA. If CW returns USA State/Local taxes for returns, then they have set a precedent which can be used against them in a lawsuit regarding refusing to deal with Import Duty refunds.

- CW has probably so far gotten away with it because most USA consumers understand state/local taxes and how they can be easily be refunded at the point of sale/return but are not familiar with Import Duty and Customs.

- The Import Duty is on an individual sale/package level so CW knows that it would be more expensive for a customer to file suit against them if they refuse to help with an Import Duty refund than the amount of the actual refund. Since state taxes are remitted in aggregate to the local governments on a monthly or quarterly basis for all sales, it would cause a much bigger problem if they tried to do the same thing with state/local taxes.

- He also thinks it would be difficult for CW to change the wording on the website to say they will not help with the paperwork regarding Import Duty refunds since they are already involved by collecting them. Anyone who decided to litigate against CW could claim bad faith.

He also said since it would not be cost effective for an individual to litigate against CW for such a small amount, it might be worth starting the litigation anyway, sending a subpoena for their records, determining how many people did not get an Import Duty refund, and then refile as a class action lawsuit. CW could be on the hook for a great deal of import duty refunds, court costs, attorney fees, fines, and bad press.


And as suggested by several people, with the US now being CW's largest market, it is foolish for them not to deal with this now rather than continue with the bad after sales support regarding refunds/exchanges/repairs/etc.

Christopher Ward should certainly make the return of customs duty easier. I think that's pretty clear. The case for setting up a US distribution centre is less so. I don't know how many times they have to deal with this issue on an annual basis. There have been relatively few threads on the forum regarding it. Each time it comes up there is a lot of "outrage" but is it as common an issue as we think? Would the cost of setting up warehousing, staffing, inventory, etc justify it? I suspect not and, would US customers be willing to see a price rise because of it? Probably not.

The forum represents a very small population of CW buyers. Accounting for CWE on facebook and the forum I'd guess we are less than 5% of CW customers and an even smaller percentage of US customers. My guess is that the average customer rarely uses the 60 day part of the 60/60 guarantee. We (forum members) are particular and vocal when we like/dislike a watch and have problems. Most customers browse the website, buy the watch and are happy with it. Adding the overhead of a US distribution centre with its costs and uncertainties may well help some few individuals but won't help the majority and will lead to a price rise for all.

I doubt that the addition of the showroom in Texas will make this any better. All watches will be despatched from the UK and I very much doubt they'll have the facility to return a watch for you. Have you seen the images of the showroom? They might be well advised to have factsheet describing what to do if you have an issue but then knowing how litigious the US is, maybe not. Can CW make the process clearer, yes. Can they be more helpful, yes. Do they still have to deal with DHL, yes. Only if all three elements (and others I'm not aware of) come together will we see the issue solved.

I imagine the difficulty is actually recovering the duty from the US government.

VAT is different. CW calculate VAT based on invoices and credit notes raised. To refund VAT they just issue a credit, and adjust the payment to the government on the next return.

I imagine recovering duty paid is quite different. Does an American buyer actually pay duty to CW or do they pay the duty to DHL why pay the US government. Assuming the latter, then how do CW refund the duty.

If I import a watch from Jomashop I can elect to pay my own VAT. (Alternatively , I can pay JS, but let's say I prefer to pay locally). On arrival in the UK, UK customs issue a demand for VAT and the post office collect it from me before delivery. Now if I return the watch to JS, and now I have to recover my VAT from the government as a private citizen.

It's hard to even contact government departments nowadays. I imagine it's similar to this in the US, and that's why it's hard for CW to help.

The way CW prices the purchase for American buyers, the total cost to us is with US Customs and duties paid. CW also collects local sales taxes for American buyers. When I go through checkout with CW the sum I pay includes watch, duties, and taxes. I’m removed from the payment chain to getting Customs duties to the US government, as CW has collected it all at checkout.

If I return a watch from America to CW, CW should refund me the entire amount I paid to them. Recovering the Customs duties and sales taxes should not be my responsibility. I didn’t pay those fees directly to the government, I paid them to CW.

CW changed the process to collect duties and taxes for American buyers two Aprils ago. Prior, a US buyer would pay US Customs duties to DHL if such import fees were required. DHL would contact the buyer to collect them before attempting delivery. I expect the reason behind the procedure change is that some buyers, despite all kinds of notice at checkout about the buyer being responsible for any and all taxes and duties, were unpleasantly surprised buy the Customs fees due. Thus, they would be unpleasant and vocal in their complaints about the fees, unpleasant towards the seller/brand for not notifying them in advance, and some would return the watch as a consequence. I see it in some watch groups where some get footstompingly angry about the unexpected added cost to them. What’s a brand to do?

Part of the problem with deferring duties payments to DHL’s collection is DHL is wildly inconsistent, in my experience. Fees are opaquely identified and calculated, arbitrarily levied and waved, and only itemized on repeated requests. I posted about my own DHL-hell experience recently. Complaints with DHL go no where. When that happens, some complain to the brand directly, even though the brand is not responsible. But when the brand collects the duties, fees, and taxes the brand IS responsible.

Well, in that case CW should refund the duty paid on a return, unless there's something in the small print that prevents them (in which case they should make it large print rather than small print).

Are there issues caused by a return for maintenance/servicing?

Thanks for the explanation, @thomcat00

I haven't had any issues with returning watches for warranty service in either direction (to the UK and back from the UK). I have sent in a couple now. I believe that there is some special declaration for repair work that CW initiates. Repairs are in much smaller numbers that shipments so I am guessing this might be handled on a per item basis and thus there aren't any issues. The problem occurs when CW transmits the customs forms in bulk electronically.

As an aside, I was watching a review of the Elliot Brown Beachmaster today and during the interview the marketing manager mentioned that Elliot Brown is looking at opening a service center in the US so that US customers do not have to send their watches overseas anymore. It seems that Elliot Brown has concluded it is worth the expense.

rkovars wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 9:31 pm I haven't had any issues with returning watches for warranty service in either direction (to the UK and back from the UK). I have sent in a couple now. I believe that there is some special declaration for repair work that CW initiates. Repairs are in much smaller numbers that shipments so I am guessing this might be handled on a per item basis and thus there aren't any issues. The problem occurs when CW transmits the customs forms in bulk electronically.

As an aside, I was watching a review of the Elliot Brown Beachmaster today and during the interview the marketing manager mentioned that Elliot Brown is looking at opening a service center in the US so that US customers do not have to send their watches overseas anymore. It seems that Elliot Brown has concluded it is worth the expense.

Clearly CW have so.little remedial work to do, it's not worth it.

After suggesting that I would do the following:
- Start a chargeback on my credit card
- Post my experience on every watch social media platform
- Stand next to the CWL booth at the WindUp Watch Fair to ensure customers fully understand the import duty policy

CWL Customer Support shared:
"However, as I understand you were unhappy to receive your duty refund back as a discount on a new purchase, my manager has agreed we will offer a refund on the duties, please allow 7 - 10 working days for this to show in your account, as it will be processed separately from the refund for the watch head.

Just to ensure you are aware, I have put a note on the account to advise that for future orders we will not be able to refund duties as we have already actioned a duty refund as a goodwill gesture on this occasion."

I'll update as soon as I actually have the import duty refund.

Bad show. Glad you should at least get the refund finally.

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:39 pm After suggesting that I would do the following:
- Start a chargeback on my credit card
- Post my experience on every watch social media platform
- Stand next to the CWL booth at the WindUp Watch Fair to ensure customers fully understand the import duty policy

CWL Customer Support shared:
"However, as I understand you were unhappy to receive your duty refund back as a discount on a new purchase, my manager has agreed we will offer a refund on the duties, please allow 7 - 10 working days for this to show in your account, as it will be processed separately from the refund for the watch head.

Just to ensure you are aware, I have put a note on the account to advise that for future orders we will not be able to refund duties as we have already actioned a duty refund as a goodwill gesture on this occasion."

I'll update as soon as I actually have the import duty refund.

“We did you a favor by doing the right thing and following the law…. But we won’t do it again.”

Cool policy…