No Sports Automatics?

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
maximus
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No Sports Automatics?

Post by maximus »

Hello,

I was directed to this site when I was looking to buy a nice watch for myself. The watches here a very nice indeed but I cannot see any for me. There are a few reasons for this:

I love the chronographs (C4) but they don't have two things I am looking for in a watch. A clear back (to see the gears working) and automatic/kinetic power. Are there reasons for this?

Also, they are too big. I am a small wrist guy, and 40-42mm just looks too big on me. Are there any plans for a 38mm size chronograph?

I know I could get a C5 Malvern but they are very old fashioned looking in my opinion and do not suit a young man like myself (21). If there was a C4 type that was 38mm, had a clear back and was automatic, I would be all over it!

There are great looking watches here but for the time being I may have to take my business elsewhere. Are there any plans for something like this (I'll be keeping an eye out)?
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by thiru »

When I spoke with CW a few weeks ago he mentioned that there was a plan to have an automatic C4 towards the end of 2008. This is what I really wanted but I bought the C4SKS (2 months ago) which is very stunning. I am currently wearing this everyday but it will become my dress watch as soon as the Kingfisher Pro LE is available (as long as this is an automatic!)
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by El Tiempo »

CW's line is evolving all the time, but not sure anything like you describe is on the horizon. The current line is the way Chris designed them I suppose. A chrono isn't just for telling the time, it's a measuring tool. Quartz movements are more accurate for this purpose. Yeah, chronos look cool, but it's just one of the reasons I like them. I use mine for all sorts of stuff.

The watch industry is trending towards big right now, but I'm sure there are plenty of options available to you. Your tastes sound similar to mine. Your price range will determine your options. Tell, us how much $$$ and we'll suggest some brands.


Good luck,
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by peterh »

I'm actually quite sure that something that you describe is NOT on the horizon. The reson for that is because I am pretty sure that it is impossible.
maximus wrote:I love the chronographs (C4) but they don't have two things I am looking for in a watch. A clear back (to see the gears working) and automatic/kinetic power. Are there reasons for this?
Kinetic is a marketing gig. A kinetic is a quartz watch that is powered by a capacitor which is charged by a rotor. The only gears you see are those that couple the rotor to the capacitor. For the rest, it's simply a quartz watch.
On top of that, some think that, since a wrist watch is worn on the wrist (duh...) a display back displays the gear train to your wrist - which has no eyes, which is kind of silly.

If you want to see gears in action, you may simply want an automatic watch.

And that is where the plot thickens. When you want an automatic watch as well as a chronograph, you're going to pay through the nose.
Also, they are too big. I am a small wrist guy, and 40-42mm just looks too big on me. Are there any plans for a 38mm size chronograph?
Closest you'll get is the C3, which is 40mm. But that probably conflicts with the bit below:
I know I could get a C5 Malvern but they are very old fashioned looking in my opinion and do not suit a young man like myself (21).
ooh... you''ve got me started now. That is called "blasphemy". ;)
If you don't apprceciate the C5's elegance for what it is, you don't get it. The C5 Malvern, in my opinion, is The Pinnacle of whatever Chris Ward has accomplished to date. Contrary to the C4, which is merely an improvement on what Tag-Heuer comes up with these days (at a fraction of the price), the C5 is a Work Of Art, paying homage to the likes of Chrono Suisse and IWC... and in such a way that you and I can afford it.

Not everything that doesn't look like the Starship Enterprise dashboard is therefore "very oldfashioned looking". In this age, that's called 'classic'. The C5 may not do everything you'd expect of a wrist watch, but it does everything you NEED in a wrist watch, with amazing design efficiency. ;-)
The C5 is CW's Yardstick. Therefore, the correct way of phrasing is not that "they don't suit you", but rather "you do no suit them". It takes a certain level of sophistication to appreciate, let alone suit, a C5, brat. :mg: :mg: :mg:

But, if you're lucky, you might grow into it. :mg: :mg: :mg:

Seriously. The C5 can be an automatic because it doesn't come with many complications. Complications in a mechanical watch come with several penalties. More on that below.
Seiko has proven that you CAN come up with a good mechanical chronograph with a decent power reserve, but even Seiko (which does waaaay larger numbers than Chris Ward does) charges you approximately 10 C4's for one Seiko automatic Flightmaster.
If there was a C4 type that was 38mm, had a clear back and was automatic, I would be all over it!
You ARE dreaming.
A C4 is a chronograph. A chronograph has many complications, and is power-hungry.
To make an automatic chronograph, you're gonna need a couple things: money and space.
I've never seen a 38mm automatic chronograph, and I doubt if they exist. And if they do, they're out of my financial reach.

The only good automatic chronograph (which is way bigger than 38mm) that I have seen under $2000 is the Seiko Flightmaster Automatic. The only reason why Seiko could do that is "because they can". I doubt if they ever made money on it... but they're so bloody big, they probably couldn't care less.

If you think that "taking your business elsewhere" is going to get you a 38mm automatic chronograph of even moderately decent quality at the price of a C4, I'd be amused to hear it.

peter
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by President »

peterh wrote:I'm actually quite sure that something that you describe is NOT on the horizon. The reson for that is because I am pretty sure that it is impossible.
maximus wrote:I love the chronographs (C4) but they don't have two things I am looking for in a watch. A clear back (to see the gears working) and automatic/kinetic power. Are there reasons for this?
Kinetic is a marketing gig. A kinetic is a quartz watch that is powered by a capacitor which is charged by a rotor. The only gears you see are those that couple the rotor to the capacitor. For the rest, it's simply a quartz watch.
On top of that, some think that, since a wrist watch is worn on the wrist (duh...) a display back displays the gear train to your wrist - which has no eyes, which is kind of silly.

If you want to see gears in action, you may simply want an automatic watch.

And that is where the plot thickens. When you want an automatic watch as well as a chronograph, you're going to pay through the nose.
Also, they are too big. I am a small wrist guy, and 40-42mm just looks too big on me. Are there any plans for a 38mm size chronograph?
Closest you'll get is the C3, which is 40mm. But that probably conflicts with the bit below:
I know I could get a C5 Malvern but they are very old fashioned looking in my opinion and do not suit a young man like myself (21).
ooh... you''ve got me started now. That is called "blasphemy". ;)
If you don't apprceciate the C5's elegance for what it is, you don't get it. The C5 Malvern, in my opinion, is The Pinnacle of whatever Chris Ward has accomplished to date. Contrary to the C4, which is merely an improvement on what Tag-Heuer comes up with these days (at a fraction of the price), the C5 is a Work Of Art, paying homage to the likes of Chrono Suisse and IWC... and in such a way that you and I can afford it.

Not everything that doesn't look like the Starship Enterprise dashboard is therefore "very oldfashioned looking". In this age, that's called 'classic'. The C5 may not do everything you'd expect of a wrist watch, but it does everything you NEED in a wrist watch, with amazing design efficiency. ;-)
The C5 is CW's Yardstick. Therefore, the correct way of phrasing is not that "they don't suit you", but rather "you do no suit them". It takes a certain level of sophistication to appreciate, let alone suit, a C5, brat. :mg: :mg: :mg:

But, if you're lucky, you might grow into it. :mg: :mg: :mg:

Seriously. The C5 can be an automatic because it doesn't come with many complications. Complications in a mechanical watch come with several penalties. More on that below.
Seiko has proven that you CAN come up with a good mechanical chronograph with a decent power reserve, but even Seiko (which does waaaay larger numbers than Chris Ward does) charges you approximately 10 C4's for one Seiko automatic Flightmaster.
If there was a C4 type that was 38mm, had a clear back and was automatic, I would be all over it!
You ARE dreaming.
A C4 is a chronograph. A chronograph has many complications, and is power-hungry.
To make an automatic chronograph, you're gonna need a couple things: money and space.
I've never seen a 38mm automatic chronograph, and I doubt if they exist. And if they do, they're out of my financial reach.

The only good automatic chronograph (which is way bigger than 38mm) that I have seen under $2000 is the Seiko Flightmaster Automatic. The only reason why Seiko could do that is "because they can". I doubt if they ever made money on it... but they're so bloody big, they probably couldn't care less.

If you think that "taking your business elsewhere" is going to get you a 38mm automatic chronograph of even moderately decent quality at the price of a C4, I'd be amused to hear it.

peter
I've seen 38mm Valjoux watches.
I'd be happy to pay for a 7750 watch from CW.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by El Tiempo »

President wrote:
I've seen 38mm Valjoux watches.
I'd be happy to pay for a 7750 watch from CW.
Hamilton's Field Khaki auto chrono line are geared with 7750's. Available in 42mm and 38mm for those without wrists like a dinosaur. It can be done. I emailed one discounter who quoted < $600. Now, if he wants to spend a few K, then selection improves.

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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by peterh »

Even if CW, who works with lower sales-per-model number, could do it at a three figure amount, that would still make it THE most expensive CW watch.

And since I would expect a 38mm chrono to sell less enthusiatsically than a 40 or 42mm chrono, it is likely that this will bite into the budget.

And lastly, when given the choice between a 6S37A and a 7750, it would be the 6S37A without thinking twice. I've seen too many watchmakers oppose against the 7750 movements to bet my money on that one.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by joerattz »

peterh wrote:And lastly, when given the choice between a 6S37A and a 7750, it would be the 6S37A without thinking twice. I've seen too many watchmakers oppose against the 7750 movements to bet my money on that one.
I doubt that. Chris is using Swiss movements so far.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by joerattz »

President wrote:I've seen 38mm Valjoux watches.
I'd be happy to pay for a 7750 watch from CW.
I too would like to see Chris do a 7750 based watch. It is really the only type of watch I care to add to my collection. Granted, I see something I like and before I know it, I gotta have it...like the white Aviator, but right now, the only thing I feel like I am missing is a 7750 chrono.

For those that think it can't be done (ahem, peterh :D ), here is one I just stumbled on that is 38mm and 7750:

http://www.shopathometv.com/catalog/pro ... oryId=4117

I am not endorsing that brand or that site, but I do believe you can get that watch for the amount they are selling it for. That watch is $900.

Here's one for $700 that is tempting me:
http://www.shopathometv.com/catalog/pro ... oryId=4117

I have also seen a Philip for $600 with a 7750 for sale at shopnbc.com but I don't know the diameter.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by peterh »

joerattz wrote:
peterh wrote:And lastly, when given the choice between a 6S37A and a 7750, it would be the 6S37A without thinking twice. I've seen too many watchmakers oppose against the 7750 movements to bet my money on that one.
I doubt that. Chris is using Swiss movements so far.
You may doubt that, but see what TimeZone thinks about the 7750. It's a cheapass movement.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by joerattz »

peterh wrote:
joerattz wrote:
peterh wrote:And lastly, when given the choice between a 6S37A and a 7750, it would be the 6S37A without thinking twice. I've seen too many watchmakers oppose against the 7750 movements to bet my money on that one.
I doubt that. Chris is using Swiss movements so far.
You may doubt that, but see what TimeZone thinks about the 7750. It's a cheapass movement.
We are talking about a Valjoux 7750 aren't we? That's what I am talking about. Can you provide some specific links at TZ? Every reference I have seen at TZ that I can think of is fairly positive for the 7750. Sure, there will be plenty of folks at TZ that don't want a stock movement...and for the prices of the watches they like, I don't blame them. You don't want to spend several thousand dollars for a watch for it to come with a stock $300+ 7750 movement. So plenty there will want some in-house modifications to the movement. but come on. To call the 7750 a cheap movement? Compared to what? I think you are being fairly harsh there, don't you? You seem to love the C5. Do you consider the 2824 a cheap movement? It costs a fraction of a 7750.

Maybe my text wasn't clear enough. I doubt that Chris would pick the 6S37A over the 7750 without thinking about it twice. Not only do I doubt he wouldn't think about it a whole bunch (much less twice), I doubt he would even do it. Last conversation I had with Chris about movements, which was probably a year ago, he is/was planning on using Swiss...at least until time some other maker could make a better quality of movement. At the time we spoke, he didn't feel anyone else did. It is possible he has changed his mind, but we haven't seen a model of his with anything other than a Swiss movement yet.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by President »

peterh wrote:
joerattz wrote:
peterh wrote:And lastly, when given the choice between a 6S37A and a 7750, it would be the 6S37A without thinking twice. I've seen too many watchmakers oppose against the 7750 movements to bet my money on that one.
I doubt that. Chris is using Swiss movements so far.
You may doubt that, but see what TimeZone thinks about the 7750. It's a cheapass movement.
http://www.timezone.com/library/horolog ... 1715938957
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by joerattz »

President wrote:
peterh wrote: You may doubt that, but see what TimeZone thinks about the 7750. It's a cheapass movement.
http://www.timezone.com/library/horolog ... 1715938957
I don't know what to make of that link. On the one hand it points out several cost cutting measures they have taken, but on the other, some of those sound like improvements over more expensive parts or techniques.

I am torn over some parts being plastic too. I don't exactly like the sound of a plastic bearing, as opposed to a jewel, but according to the article lubrication issues are eliminated. I don't know. Are they just cheapening the movement, or are they finding more efficient or practical materials? Plastic doesn't sound too good to me, but there are probably more space age plastics on the space shuttle than there are rubies.

It doesn't sound like some of the parts should last too long being plastic though does it? Yet the movement was introduced in 1974. You would think they would have worked out the bugs if some of the parts weren't holding up. That is, if you have any faith in ETA.

It does look cheap, doesn't it?
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by El Tiempo »

Like other materials, "plastic" comes in varying grades and properties. I work with machines. Some of these machines have a 40-50 year history. One of the recent advances, say over the past decade or so, has been the introduction of nylon parts for said machines. Nylon parts to replace steel parts. I once scoffed at the idea, but I'm now a believer. In the right application the nylon parts have proven themselves a winner. In many instances where I'd replace parts on an annual basis, the nylon parts have eliminated this. They've eliminated the need for further adjustment because they simply don't wear. They don't even need lubrication. All this for 1/3 the cost.

I didn't turn my nose up initially because I'm a snobbish elitist who believed a parts value was centered in the human toil and hours put into crafting it, but because I thought there was no way "plastic" is going to hold up like steel. How do they do it? I'm not a chemist so I don't know. They just do.

The real negative I saw with the movement was the one gear shaft that simply rides in a hole. No mount or anything. Not good. This more than the nylon parts would keep my from buying the movement.

There are those who believe anything ETA or VJ powered is crap. Big deal. Not everything below a certain price point is rubbish.

Thanks for mentioning the Flightmaster auto. I didn't know about them. I'd love to own one of those movements. Expensive for a reason I'm sure.
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Re: No Sports Automatics?

Post by joerattz »

For comparison, here is a link to a review of the Flight Master with some decent shots of the movement:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/me ... 3B%26gt%3B

That examination of the movement is not as in-depth as the one on the 7750 though. But, peterh, I agree that it looks like a more expensive movement. But even with it, the reviewer points out some parts of the movement that are not finished. Is that a power reserve at the 2:00?
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