July Sale 2024 Thread

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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rkovars
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by rkovars »

willg wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:08 pm
JAFO wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:20 pm Even so given CWs continually improving image, with watches trading above MRSP, the prices remain attractive.
Hmm, I see the opposite. In r/watchexchange I see mostly ~40% discounts to MSRP. Perhaps not for special/limited editions, but I don't see what you see overall.
You have to pay attention to what those watches sold at originally. The C60 sold for $795 US on strap ($910 on bracelet). Prices have increased a lot since then. Some of those were snatched up as 'nearly new' then they would could have been purchased as low as $550 ($637 on bracelet). Occasionally they could have been even cheaper. Also take note that for the most part of sales life of these models CW had their voucher codes active which would drop the prices of new watches even further - $125 off a new watch (CW stopped issuing vouchers in Jan 2023 - Kip's announcement was Jan 2, 2023). So going off of RRP isn't exactly right.

Certainly not every model is trading above RRP. The moderators track secondary market pricing in the archive. Note that not all sales are recorded as that would be an impossible task. However it does track a lot of sales. Also note that the prices are averages and don't take into account straps or bracelets so bracelets would probably be a little higher and straps a little lower.

Right now the average for 2024 for the Black C60 600 MKIII is trading at $677 with 29 recorded sales (this includes all 40 mm strap/bracelet variants in black). The 38 mm is trading for a little less on average.

For those models in particular the branding at 9 was very divisive driving the price of these down quite a bit. The C60 300s will take less of a hit because they were never sold under the old voucher and they have a more popular design overall. The 40 mm models are currently trading for about $789 (RRP $850-1050).

Also, we aren't talking about people making a living off of these things but it never stopped people trying to make a few bucks. Even if they didn't sell on the secondary market they were still snatched from the hands of people who really wanted them. Hence the limits.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by nycWATCHnerd »

willg wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:08 pm Hmm, I see the opposite. In r/watchexchange I see mostly ~40% discounts to MSRP. Perhaps not for special/limited editions, but I don't see what you see overall.

I have been buying (and sometimes selling) watches for more than 30 years. One cannot include the craziness of the past few years in the reality of the long term watch market. Except for a few rare models/brands, nothing pre-owned sells for more than MSRP (or even close to it in most cases). There is also a massive bloodletting happening now as people try to get out of watches, cars, art, etc. thus prices in all of those markets are depressed. I think Watcharts is a great resource but it does not tell the entire picture because it does not have enough years of data.

I do not think CW does any better, or any worse, than similar brands on the pre-owned market. CW watches selling pre-owned via any online platform (or customer return being sold on CW website) are going to be 30-40% off MSRP. I have sold many watches over the years (i.e. Alpina, Citizen, Hamilton, Oris Tissot, San Martin, Seiko, Yema) and rarely see more than that doing it myself via eBay or forums.

I recently wanted to sell a very popular Tudor (that is literally brand new purchased from an AD several weeks ago and never worn....long story) and two different very well known online pre-owned dealers each offered me 50% off MSRP. They stated that even though essentially new, customers would expect a 20% off retail price and the dealer needed a 30% margin for themselves. I decided to try myself and listed on a few sites and was getting what I considered were low ball offers between 25-40% off retail and then I would have to pay fees. I know the market is down but this is a popular not easy to get model and would not do much better in a better market.

IMHO, CW does not seem to lose more value than any other brand on the pre-owned market with Rolex and Patek being the exceptions.

I also think CW were smart to stop the coupons and constant sales as that only devalues the brand. Maybe it made sense when the were starting out but now that they are an established brand, they no longer need to do it. Customers get enough value from the CW pricing strategy of x3 manufacturing cost so it is not like they have a great deal of margin to work with.

Q: When is the last time you got a Rolex on discount when the ADs have 36-38% margin on each watch?
A: I can tell you when I did. It was early 2010, I was buying a 36mm DateJust, and was offered an 8% discount by the AD. Back in the "good old days" Rolex ADs were allowed to discount up to 10% but not anymore.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by MarkingTime »

I feel that going forward, we will see less watches in the sales, as there will be less surplus stock, pre-orders help in this regard. Also, I've noticed less C63s on the market, especially the limited editions, who seem to have found their forever homes.
I think we'll have slim pickings this summer.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by MarkingTime »

willg wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:08 pm
JAFO wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:20 pm Even so given CWs continually improving image, with watches trading above MRSP, the prices remain attractive.
Hmm, I see the opposite. In r/watchexchange I see mostly ~40% discounts to MSRP. Perhaps not for special/limited editions, but I don't see what you see overall.
Apart from the odd chancer, trying to sell an LE SH21 or Bel Canto, CW's do not trade above retail, far from it. On the other hand, they don't sink like a stone either. If you're patient, buying on the used market is the best bet, sales are not what they used to be and although deals can be had, there isn't much margin for the flippers.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by JAFO »

There's a good few on eBay priced at more than the original sell price, and not just BCs.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by Bahnstormer_vRS »

I've noticed too, over the last two CW Sales, that the level of discount has reduced from the level of a couple of years ago of;-

30% - Nearly New & 50% - Clearance (end of line / retiring) then, to

20% - Nearly New & 40% - Clearance (end of line / retiring) now.

This, as @rkovars Rich has alluded to is in line with the withdrawal of the Loupe vouchers that were worth £100 / $125, approximately 10%, off the RRP on a new watch. Moving with the times. :wink: :wink:


Additionally, for those who delight in a bit of 'data analysis' you might be interested to look at the Resales Performance League of CW models over the years, collated on the CWArchive.

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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

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JAFO wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:49 pm There's a good few on eBay priced at more than the original sell price, and not just BCs.
You need to use current or inflation adjusted price to get an accurate picture. The last few years have seen high inflation on watches and the increase in demand due to the fad over mechanical watches, in general.

The Twelve is trending at 20-30% under retail, for mint examples and with extra straps.
C63 (mainly 39mm) trending at 40-50% under retail
C60 300 Pro, 30-40% under retail.

Those three models are some of the most popular ever and I've based the rough figures on sales, rather than aspirational advertised prices.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by Kip »

MarkingTime wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 9:50 am
JAFO wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:49 pm There's a good few on eBay priced at more than the original sell price, and not just BCs.
You need to use current or inflation adjusted price to get an accurate picture. The last few years have seen high inflation on watches and the increase in demand due to the fad over mechanical watches, in general.

The Twelve is trending at 20-30% under retail, for mint examples and with extra straps.
C63 (mainly 39mm) trending at 40-50% under retail
C60 300 Pro, 30-40% under retail.

Those three models are some of the most popular ever and I've based the rough figures on sales, rather than aspirational advertised prices.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but I don't think the numbers are as dire as what I have tracked in the CWArchive Resales area.

It is true that there are fluctuations in pricing and differences depending on color and condition. What you see in the CWA is an average resale based on the mid price (strap/bracelet) across many platforms.

The C12 (SS) original mid price $1110 - current average based on 146 records $1083. About 97% of original.

The C12 (Ti) original mid price $1673 - current average based on 40 records $1816. About 107% of original

C63 Sealander Automatic 39mm original mid price $755 - current average based on 562 records $593. About 78% of original.

The C60 Trident Pro 300 38mm original price $950 - current average based on 123 records $803. About 85% of original.

The C60 Trident Pro 300 40mm original price $950 - current average based on 132 records $774. About 82% of original.

The C60 Trident Pro 300 42mm original price $950 - current average based on 43 records $769. About 81% of original.

There are many variables when it come to resales such as supply and demand, condition, completeness, color, bracelets, reputation of seller and location. This is why the CWA will only work with averages.

The CWA resale section will give one a feel for what a watch is worth, how many have recently sold and trending prices. Ultimately a watch is worth what it sells for.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by nycWATCHnerd »

Kip wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 11:26 am ...snip...

The C60 Trident Pro 300 38mm original price $950 - current average based on 123 records $803. About 85% of original.

The C60 Trident Pro 300 40mm original price $950 - current average based on 132 records $774. About 82% of original.

The C60 Trident Pro 300 42mm original price $950 - current average based on 43 records $769. About 81% of original.

...snip...
On an interesting side note, it appears smaller watches are holding more value keeping with what is being seen in the overall market; people are gravitating towards smaller watches in all categories/styles.

*It could also just be a statistical anomaly or not enough data to draw that conclusion.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by MarkingTime »

Kip wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 11:26 am
MarkingTime wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 9:50 am
JAFO wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:49 pm There's a good few on eBay priced at more than the original sell price, and not just BCs.
You need to use current or inflation adjusted price to get an accurate picture. The last few years have seen high inflation on watches and the increase in demand due to the fad over mechanical watches, in general.

The Twelve is trending at 20-30% under retail, for mint examples and with extra straps.
C63 (mainly 39mm) trending at 40-50% under retail
C60 300 Pro, 30-40% under retail.

Those three models are some of the most popular ever and I've based the rough figures on sales, rather than aspirational advertised prices.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but I don't think your numbers are as dire as what I have tracked in the CWArchive Resales area.
I use eBay, it's as good as any a place for current market prices. If I'm in the market for a watch, this is what I generally use to gauge any offer I might make.

I wouldn't say the sales prices are dire, or particularly good, but they are what they are.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by Kip »

Watch your email. Somethings coming.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by Timepiece.Pete »

I'm waiting with baited breath!
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

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That’s me refreshing this thread and my emails constantly


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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by MarkingTime »

It’s there, but the links aren’t working.

Sorted.
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Re: July Sale 2024 Thread

Post by welshlad »

The preview email has now gone out. The link to the sale preview is:

https://www.christopherward.com/vip-df5 ... t=0&sz=144

Enjoy!
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