Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by albionphoto »

Dynamite_Kid19 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:07 am
Kip wrote:
Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:46 am Cost-wise, how would it compare?
I think the movement cost is approx. 1/3 higher which would probably translate to a watch price increase of roughly $250 - $300. A bigger problem would be acquiring the movements in volume. Actual research would produce more accurate numbers.
Yes it is pricier and I think the 1/3 is accurate. If Zelos can put it in $800 watch I think CW could manage with a reasonable increase and not push them too high. Not sure of production numbers but they are owned by the Citizen Group and have said their goal is to be a replacement for the SW or ETA. I also forgot to mention it does not have the winding issue that some people have had with the SW. I personally haven't had any issues with winding my SW's.

I'd be up for the increased cost. Could allow CW to create 3 price tiers, SW equipped could be Trident 300, LJP Trident Pro 600 or 1000 and then inhouse Tridents.

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I looked at the Cousins UK price list for Selitta movements. This provides an interesting comparison that I admit isn't strictly applicable (see below) but is illuminating.
The SW200.1 was 129.95 pounds, the SW300.1 was 379.95 pounds. Simple maths says that's a 250 pound difference on its own. Multiply that by 3 and we get a 750 pound price increase (CW business model). Life isn't that simple though and I'm sure that with a minimum order quantity and b2b model the price of both movements would reduce significantly. Indeed, the price increase may be the $250 - 300 you suggested. Cousins UK pricing may not be the best guide but it is a useful one that can be checked independently and doesn't rely on estimates.

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Zelos can use the Sw300-1 in an $800 watch. Okay, but they don't make in Switzerland as far as I know. They are designed in Singapore and are nice watches but don't have the additional cost (burden) of an atelier in Biel/Bienne. You may question the value of "swiss Made" on the dial but a lot of folks appreciate it. Outsourcing for lower assembly and overall staffing, etc will reduce overall costs significantly.

Finally, you and I may be willing to spend an extra $250 - 300 (or more) on a watch to get the SW300-1 but a lot of people on here aren't. A quick read of the comments following the price rise of the new military watches should be informative. Design considerations apart (I don't like them either) there were as many moans about the price as the design. Imagine the typed outrage and "I won't buy at that price, that's too much for a CW" if prices went up across the board because of a new movement and that assumes it is just a $300 increase. At the end of the day a 20%-ish price rise to justify slightly better regulation and a 4 hour rise in power reserve doesn't justify using the SW300-1.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by rkovars »

albionphoto wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:17 pm
Dynamite_Kid19 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:07 am
Kip wrote:
I think the movement cost is approx. 1/3 higher which would probably translate to a watch price increase of roughly $250 - $300. A bigger problem would be acquiring the movements in volume. Actual research would produce more accurate numbers.
Yes it is pricier and I think the 1/3 is accurate. If Zelos can put it in $800 watch I think CW could manage with a reasonable increase and not push them too high. Not sure of production numbers but they are owned by the Citizen Group and have said their goal is to be a replacement for the SW or ETA. I also forgot to mention it does not have the winding issue that some people have had with the SW. I personally haven't had any issues with winding my SW's.

I'd be up for the increased cost. Could allow CW to create 3 price tiers, SW equipped could be Trident 300, LJP Trident Pro 600 or 1000 and then inhouse Tridents.

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I looked at the Cousins UK price list for Selitta movements. This provides an interesting comparison that I admit isn't strictly applicable (see below) but is illuminating.
The SW200.1 was 129.95 pounds, the SW300.1 was 379.95 pounds. Simple maths says that's a 250 pound difference on its own. Multiply that by 3 and we get a 750 pound price increase (CW business model). Life isn't that simple though and I'm sure that with a minimum order quantity and b2b model the price of both movements would reduce significantly. Indeed, the price increase may be the $250 - 300 you suggested. Cousins UK pricing may not be the best guide but it is a useful one that can be checked independently and doesn't rely on estimates.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/sell ... ement-list

Zelos can use the Sw300-1 in an $800 watch. Okay, but they don't make in Switzerland as far as I know. They are designed in Singapore and are nice watches but don't have the additional cost (burden) of an atelier in Biel/Bienne. You may question the value of "swiss Made" on the dial but a lot of folks appreciate it. Outsourcing for lower assembly and overall staffing, etc will reduce overall costs significantly.

Finally, you and I may be willing to spend an extra $250 - 300 (or more) on a watch to get the SW300-1 but a lot of people on here aren't. A quick read of the comments following the price rise of the new military watches should be informative. Design considerations apart (I don't like them either) there were as many moans about the price as the design. Imagine the typed outrage and "I won't buy at that price, that's too much for a CW" if prices went up across the board because of a new movement and that assumes it is just a $300 increase. At the end of the day a 20%-ish price rise to justify slightly better regulation and a 4 hour rise in power reserve doesn't justify using the SW300-1.
A couple of issues with the comparison. The price of £129 is for standard grade. CW tries to get Special or Elaboré so the cost goes to around £230. Still an increase of £150ish to your point. Dynamite Kid is also talking about the La Joux Perret G100 which is closer to the SW300 if not more. I know that anOrdain switched over and were charging £250 more than the SW200 option.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by albionphoto »

rkovars wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:55 pm
A couple of issues with the comparison. The price of £129 is for standard grade. CW tries to get Special or Elaboré so the cost goes to around £230. Still an increase of £150ish to your point. Dynamite Kid is also talking about the La Joux Perret G100 which is closer to the SW300 if not more. I know that anOrdain switched over and were charging £250 more than the SW200 option.
I don't have handle on the LJP G100 and did miss that point. Cheers. I don't know if LJP have the capacity to add customers at will. In 2018 Selitta made 1 million movements and I doubt their capacity has gone down much. You've highlighted the biggest point though; price increase. How many people would value that? Reading around the forum it seems that many people want every watch to be priced like a $300 quartz. That's not going to happen any more. It seems to me that relatively few of the denizens here would pay for the price increase.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by rkovars »

albionphoto wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:11 pm
rkovars wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:55 pm
A couple of issues with the comparison. The price of £129 is for standard grade. CW tries to get Special or Elaboré so the cost goes to around £230. Still an increase of £150ish to your point. Dynamite Kid is also talking about the La Joux Perret G100 which is closer to the SW300 if not more. I know that anOrdain switched over and were charging £250 more than the SW200 option.
I don't have handle on the LJP G100 and did miss that point. Cheers. I don't know if LJP have the capacity to add customers at will. In 2018 Selitta made 1 million movements and I doubt their capacity has gone down much. You've highlighted the biggest point though; price increase. How many people would value that? Reading around the forum it seems that many people want every watch to be priced like a $300 quartz. That's not going to happen any more. It seems to me that relatively few of the denizens here would pay for the price increase.
No worries. I think you might be surprised how many would buy though. There is an argument to be had that the entry point into the brand is ever increasing. Probably due to the fact that they are a business and have to pick and choose where they want to compete and the quartz didn't make the cut. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a good way into the brand and a good way into watches in general.

I think that as things stand now the other brands are catching up to CW and in some areas are able to undercut them. My point about using the 300 was to continue to elevate the brand above the noise. But it would come at a cost to the end user for certain.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by albionphoto »

rkovars wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:26 pm No worries. I think you might be surprised how many would buy though. There is an argument to be had that the entry point into the brand is ever increasing. Probably due to the fact that they are a business and have to pick and choose where they want to compete and the quartz didn't make the cut. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a good way into the brand and a good way into watches in general.

I think that as things stand now the other brands are catching up to CW and in some areas are able to undercut them. My point about using the 300 was to continue to elevate the brand above the noise. But it would come at a cost to the end user for certain.
The way the microbrand scene has evolved has been fascinating and they are catching up with CW in many ways. I used to think of Oris as CWs big competitor and inspiration. They have found a way to use their Calibre 400 to move prices upwards. Oris don't assemble the Calibre 400 themselves though and can build volume more easily that way. Perhaps CW should use the SH21 in the same way (I am a heretic). I don't think CW can survive as just a value player any more. Growth in the sub-$1,000 range is slow and competition is fierce and evolving rapidly.

I don't think CW can do a Seiko and abandon it's value focused customers but moving the product mix into the $3,000 - $1,500 range would help distinguish themselves more. I'm just not sure that retro-revivals are the way to do it. Maybe the SW300-1 is the way to do it but just putting that in the current range probably won't be enough. If the next big thing is power reserve then either we need something new from Selitta or an alternative like the G100. I do note that the LJP G100 is likely a swiss version of the Miyota 9015 and so the rotor noise and wobble may put some people off.

I was at the Horology Forum in NYC recently and it occurred to me that, amongst that crowd and the watch community in general, CW is often the brand that inspires indifference. Oris broke that mold but I don't see how CW can at the moment. Sadly, I think that they will have to in order to grow and succeed in the future. Maybe we need the CW version of the Oris bear. Oh, I dread to think...
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

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albionphoto wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:55 pm
rkovars wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:26 pm No worries. I think you might be surprised how many would buy though. There is an argument to be had that the entry point into the brand is ever increasing. Probably due to the fact that they are a business and have to pick and choose where they want to compete and the quartz didn't make the cut. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a good way into the brand and a good way into watches in general.

I think that as things stand now the other brands are catching up to CW and in some areas are able to undercut them. My point about using the 300 was to continue to elevate the brand above the noise. But it would come at a cost to the end user for certain.
The way the microbrand scene has evolved has been fascinating and they are catching up with CW in many ways. I used to think of Oris as CWs big competitor and inspiration. They have found a way to use their Calibre 400 to move prices upwards. Oris don't assemble the Calibre 400 themselves though and can build volume more easily that way. Perhaps CW should use the SH21 in the same way (I am a heretic). I don't think CW can survive as just a value player any more. Growth in the sub-$1,000 range is slow and competition is fierce and evolving rapidly.

I don't think CW can do a Seiko and abandon it's value focused customers but moving the product mix into the $3,000 - $1,500 range would help distinguish themselves more. I'm just not sure that retro-revivals are the way to do it. Maybe the SW300-1 is the way to do it but just putting that in the current range probably won't be enough. If the next big thing is power reserve then either we need something new from Selitta or an alternative like the G100. I do note that the LJP G100 is likely a swiss version of the Miyota 9015 and so the rotor noise and wobble may put some people off.

I was at the Horology Forum in NYC recently and it occurred to me that, amongst that crowd and the watch community in general, CW is often the brand that inspires indifference. Oris broke that mold but I don't see how CW can at the moment. Sadly, I think that they will have to in order to grow and succeed in the future. Maybe we need the CW version of the Oris bear. Oh, I dread to think...
I would bet that this very discussion is coming up daily at CW towers and is the crux of the current environment. I have also seen the indifference toward CW in certain crowds. They definitely see it as just another micro. It also seems to me that they haven't checked into the brand since 2015 or so. There has been a lot of change since then.

As far as rotor noise goes, I think that the design of the watch really matters. My new NTH with a 9015 in it isn't much louder than my C60 with an SW200 COSC inside. I don't notice any wobble at all. I don't have any experience with the G100 so can't say one way or the other.

I think Oris was able to lean on their heritage to make inroads with that crowd. This is something that CW doesn't have.

They haven't done too much with the SH21 in recent years. Maybe they are due? I would guess that to go all in they would need to get the manufacturer to seriously ramp production and that might not be possible. There must be some reason why it hasn't made it into more watches the last few years.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by OllyW »

rkovars wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:28 pmThey haven't done too much with the SH21 in recent years. Maybe they are due? I would guess that to go all in they would need to get the manufacturer to seriously ramp production and that might not be possible. There must be some reason why it hasn't made it into more watches the last few years.
It's quite a big movement and the case sizes on new watch releases from CW seem to be getting smaller, matching the current watch industry trend. Tudor and their movement maker Kinissi have managed to scale down their original manufacturer calibre to fit into smaller cases, I wonder if CW and Synergies Horlogères are planning a similar move with the Calibre SH21?
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by Didier.O »

As I said before, nothing against that movement, however Im not likely to purchase a CW with one of these anytime soon, no matter the design. Im surely far from the core CW target market at this point. All that being said, to me CW has reached a level of maturity that would allow it to venture upmarket on a variety of references (not just the one super-spec'd limited edition).

Obviously being a Spring Drive enthusiast there is a bias, but I am at a point where I expect a tad more from a brand aspiring to grow in the world of mechanical watches. I really like Tudor's MT movement, and obviously the work Oris has done on their Calibre 400 is awesome. I'm looking for a diver these days, and am strongly gravitating towards these 2 brands.

Give me a 40mm-or-below CW with 70h power reserve and, oh boy, a Titanium option and Im in. Id pay for that.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by HaaBratt »

Macdaz wrote:
Flef wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:24 pm It's a poor movement for a £1000 watch, it's an OK one for £500 watch. If you except the inherent design fault.
I think perhaps that's over simplifying things. I have Steinharts and CWs and if you take the movement out of the equation and compare the two the standard of materials, fit and finish is way better on the CW. That goes a long way to demonstrating why one is £500 and one is £1000.
And also design and development! CW offers watches with a distinct design while Steinhart are mostly homages.


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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by MiniMpi »

Just a positive note on the Sellita SW200-1 :

Checked the power reserve on the 36mm C63 and it managed 44 hours sitting in the watch box after a full wind ie: 40 winds :clap:
that's 6 hours more than the stated 38 hours.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by JAFO »

My Sellita movements in my CW watches perform admirably. I am very pleased.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by Superthrust »

It's early days but I'm pretty happy with the ljp g100 in my spearfish so far. It does have rotor noise but it's considerably less noisy than the 9015 with a display back, plus with a 68 hour PR and running at 0.6spd it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

It's also quite a bit nicer looking than a 2824 or 2892 imo.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by dig301 »

I’m very happy/impressed with the Sellita movement in my C60, currently loses about 3 seconds during the day when I’m wearing it and then gets those 3 seconds back during the night when it’s face up on the counter. After reading various threads on this forum and this thread I was expecting worse. No idea on how good the power reserve is as it’s my daily watch so not tested that.
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Re: Is the Sellita SW200 a good movement?

Post by WileyECoyote »

Is the Sellita Sw200 a good movement? Well…I own several Christopher Ward watches using this movement & have experienced no problems with any of them. Two of them gain about five minutes over two weeks of use. The rest are remarkably accurate. I have a C60 Trident Mark 3 that I purchased when that series debuted. It operates under Cosc accuracy even though it wasn’t Cosc certified. My only complaint or wish would be for a longer power reserve than 38 hours. I spent a little more for a C63 Sealander GMT which gives me a 56 hour power reserve & has operated within Cosc accuracy for a year. The Sellita SW200 is a reliable, workhorse movement or that has been my experience. A lot of brands use them. What sets Christopher Ward watches apart from the competition in this price range is their refined designs & high degree of case finishing. If more of CW’s watches used the improved movement & power reserve of the Sealander GMT’s, that would be about perfect. I do own a Christopher Ward with the SH21 movement & it does keep Cosc certified time as advertised & will run for 5 days on a full winding. Nice watch as it should be for the price. That is the thing. One would most likely expect to pay in the $2,000 range or above. With the Sellita SW200 movement, you are able to buy a very nicely finished,reliable Christopher Ward watch for right around a $1,000. What’s wrong with that?

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