CWL watch categories

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by mjh93sa »

Whilst I agree with the sentiment expressed by TxTimeFan that it is not our business to run, we know that they do look at the forum and talk to the Mods. So as it is one of the Mods who has started this thread I will add my comments.

I think that from what we have seen reported on the forum regarding the state of NN watches that people have received there only need be some simple categories:

New / New Old Stock:
Pretty obvious

Nearly New:
  • No marks to crystal
  • No more than a few light marks to case and/or strap
  • All damage either not easily seen, or reasonably expected to be able to be polished out
Used:
  • Marks to crystal that could be polished out
  • Visible scratching to case and/or strap that might not be polished out
Special:
A watch that is so unique or battered that it requires greater description. I'm thinking stuff rather like that infamous C4 that was given a re-birth recently.

Discount levels could be adjusted accordingly and hopefully the overhead in categorisation is as simple as happens now when watches are selected as being acceptable to be placed in the NN section.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Loddonite »

This is about honestly describing the condition of a watch that is not new. If it is not new then customers should have an idea of what they're getting so they know roughly the condition of the watch and that the discount is a reflection of CWL's opinion of a fair price.

CWL's NN description says "Our nearly new watches have simply been used for promotional photography and as press samples, so they are essentially as good as new". The descriptions of a few NN purchases we've read on this forum would imply that either the media are pretty rough with their review samples or that the description is out of date.

I think that something like this would be appropriate...

NN would stay. There's nothing wrong with the NN category but the description could extend to customer returns in genuinely NN condition. If they don't make the grade then they'll go into one of these...

Very Good
Returns from customers (and media) with tiny scratches/desk-diving marks and the like should be described a such and should be in very good condition.
Refurbished watches should be described a such and go here, unless refinished/polished up to NN standard.

Anything in a lesser condition should be in a further category ("Used"?), perhaps priced individually according to condition.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by asqwerth »

Mortis wrote: [snip]

The problem with the NNs at present is that no one checks them. [snip]
I would like to comment on that statement. I'll also give my suggestions for NN grading levels at the end of this post, but first:-

I bought 2 NN women's watches during the sale period exclusive to forum members, and before the spate of emails about the questionable quality of NN watches began rolling in.

They arrived a few days ago, and the difference between the 2 watches couldn't be more extreme.

The Matisse was flawless.

The White Rapide Chronograph was stated in the accompanying letter to have had its strap changed, and yes, the strap it came with was flawless, new, very white and very clean. However:

1. the tachymeter bezel was marred by many fine scratches around about half of the circumference of the bezel. Now, if you've seen a Rapide in real life, you'll know that the tachymeter markings are very fine and thin, and inlaid on a thin bezel that has a VERY polished/mirror finish. The fine scratches and the markings therefore sort of merged into one another and made it very difficult to read or even see the markings properly, esp under bright lights reflecting off the polished bezel.

2. worse still, there was something wrong with the quartz movement itself. It kept stopping at 5 o'clock. When I first took it out of the box (it was night time), it was not running, and the hands were at 5 o'clock. However, once I unscrewed out the crown and set the time and date, it started working again, so I thought maybe all the jostling around while being shipped had stopped it temporarily. I left it overnight, and in the morning, found that it had stopped at 5 again. I reset the time, and it began running again. To test it, I wore it to work that day. At 5 in the evening, it stopped again.

Of course, I've contacted Wera, and she agrees there's something seriously wrong with it. I'm returning it, and they are refunding my money plus postage. Their willingness to honour their 60-60 guarantee is not in issue, nor is their customer service.

What is in issue is that they must have examined the watch sufficiently to make a decision that the old strap needed changing. Yet, they didn't spot the 5 o'clock problem. They also either did not notice the fine scratches (unlikely, I think), or felt it was alright to sell the same under their definition of "nearly new", ie that the watch had only been used for promotional photography or press samples (like another poster said, the photographers or reviewers must have handled the watches very roughly!).

I'll concede the same fine scratches might not matter as much if they were found on the brushed steel, no-markings case of the C5As, for example. But on a very polished case with a thin bezel with fine markings, the scratches make all the difference because it affected the visibility and reading of the tachymeter.

Also, while the refund is good security when taking the risk on a nearly new watch, I don't live in the UK, and it's going to be a pain to find the time to get down to the post office and waste time in the queue, all in order to send it back to CWL.

I agree with all those who are concerned that the current NN practice will damage CWL's reputation, for those buyers unlucky enough to get a NN watch that seems more banged up to be nearly new.

So what's the solution if CWL wishes to continue selling NN watches? I think with the wide disparity in the condition of the NN watches, they should not be sold under one umbrella description. There should be a few different grades with corresponding levels of discounts.

I've tried to set out below a few grades of NN, which will however require that CWL has checkers who visually examine each NN watch.

NN grade 1 - no blemish on case, crystal or strap (my Matisse would fall under this)

NN grade 2 -

a) very minor dings/scratches or blemishes on the case that do not mar the topward facing facade of the watch. This would refer to minor scratches or dings on the sides or back of the watch (but not on any display back) that cannot be seen when looking at the top of the watch. If there is a small ding on the bezel, it must not be visible from the top view.

Generally, these blemishes should not be easily visible or obvious from the side view upon a casual or cursory glance.

OR

b) there are minor scratches/blemishes on the strap ONLY.

NN grade 3 -

a) minor dings/scratches or blemishes on the case that can been seen on the topward facing facade of the watch. This would include dings or scratches on the bezel that can be seen from the top of the watch.

b) dings/scratches or blemishes on the sides of the case or back, including display back. Generally, these blemishes would be visible or obvious even upon a casual or cursory glance.

d) obvious or more serious scratches/blemishes on the strap.

I would consider the Rapide to be in this category for the visual blemishes, but the 5 o'clock problem is in a whole other category altogether.

Anything worse than the above, or if there is something wrong with the movement or hands, then the watch should not be sold as Nearly New AT ALL.

The only problem is that even with checkers, CWL might not have caught the 5 o'clock fault at all, if the resetting the date and time caused the watch to start running again.

I don't know how to solve that, unless CWL is willing to have a system where the checker examines visually each NN watch, then comes back after 24 hours to check on it.

Final words: I still like CWL watches and the company's ethos. I like the fact they are close to their fans, listen and respond to feedback and even modify designs based on the same at times.

I don't want them to get a bad rep.

So I hope they will seriously consider grading their NN watches and discounting based on a scale.

I'll still buy their new watches, and am waiting eagerly to see what their new ladies' line is like, but I'll hold off on their NN sales for the moment.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Kip »

Excellent post asqwerth.

Just so you know that these matters are under discussion at CWL and that Chris is watching this topic.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by robinbarke »

The problem with the above very thoughtful post is that it would place a heavy and costly burden upon CW and lead to many disputes about categorisation and condition. I really do not think that a brand which seeks to enhance its reputation for quality and service should have anything to do with supplying pieces that are in any condition other than perfect. Watches that have been returned by the first owner in perfect condition may be re-sold as 'Like New' and the buyer would have complete confidence in the purchase and there would be no possible damage to CW's reputation.

All other returns, press samples, faulty pieces subject to repair should be sold, perhaps through an agency, on E-bay as refurbished with the blemishes fully described so that again the buyer would have confidence.

'Presentation is everything' is very true and I suggest that any watch from Christopher Ward that isn't perfect is a disappointment to the buyer and in the long run will diminish the brand.
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Post by Tooks »

It should be just called the 'buyer beware' section and leave it at that!

Seriously though, I have no idea of the numbers of NN sales, but judging by the generous returns policy and what we actually see in the NN section, it must be quite a few?

Now, take the number of 'complaints' on this forum regarding condition and I wonder how big the problem actually is?

We shouldn't be taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut here, so max 3 categories is all we need I think.

New
Nearly New
Used

I would also join the chorus of people wondering if it's even wise to sell old or used stock via the website though. I think it devalues the brand, as well as depresses actual values of CW watches. I suggest it also damages sales of full price stock, as how many times do we see threads on here asking when the next sale is? Those of us who've been around a while know you don't have to wait too long before one turns up...

I know that the CW philosophy is about 'luxury Swiss watches without luxury prices', but it feels to me more and more like a discount watch website every week, and is at odds with what the watches themselves are capable of saying.

I know a lot of people will disagree with what I've just said, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well, you know the rest....
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by footycrazy »

My next question is to Christopher W.

When you had the Dream of CWL was the headline..
CHRISTOPHER WARD LONDON Luxury swiss made watches at affordable prices.
OR
CHRISTOPHER WARD LONDON pukka new and used watches.

come on
any returned watches should be sold elsewhere, or replace/restore back to a new standard, shorley replacing a case is cheaper and more ethical than giving it a huge discount for it only to come back again.

Best wishes for future.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by RustyinRochester »

A most interesting topic. Kudos to Kip (and CWL) for wanting to more clearly define the topic. At least they are honest in saying that some watches are not perfect...... unlike some companies that put returns back into circulation as if they were new. I won't mention any names. 8)

While trying to more clearly define NN with more specific information, a new problem would appear. How do you price NN vs. NNN vs NNNN. And will buyers always wonder whether their NOT NEW watch should have been priced differently?

I am curious... when a new watch is returned to CWL under the 60:60 warranty, what is the process to determine if it becomes a NN or is pulled out of circulation entirely because of movement problems? Obviously, someone there is making a decision about these watches?
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Old Skool »

I thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth too.

I have one CW watch, a C4 bought NN recently and it has been flawless to date. I spoke with Wera and she was very reassuring that the majority of watches resold as NN are usually good quality. I have no doubts about this.

Yes, i feel that there could be a tighter control of quality of the watches sent out as NN. How they do that is up to them. They could grade this, but it would take extra time, manpower and cost. As a result, will the point of NN, with its savings, be eroded?

As regards brand identity and preservation of the concept of "luxury":
Now, CW should do as CW please, however, I remembered in the not so distant past trying to buy from Goldsmiths ( a UK verison of Tourneau), and, checking on their online website to research the watches.
Now, you know how all retail websites have all the blurb at the bottom, "about us, customer services, delivery" etc., well, Goldsmiths have "Goldsmith Outlet" , where they have the same concept as CW 50% sales and NN, but separate and not so obvious, though still accessible from the main website.
This allows them to shift stock they don't need at discounted prices, while preserving the "halo" status of their main website.
It would take manpower and time and cost to set this up, but perhaps, this initial financial outlay could be seen as a positive investment to preserving what is essentially a new concept in luxury watch sales - the online exclusive method.

I personally would not altogether associate luxury with seeing an NN seciton or sale section constantly updating on the main website. that's my personal opinion, but I feel if you want to be portrayed as a luxury gooods manufacturer, then you need to preserve a certain mystique, which may involve a secondary website (or subtly available section) where you can achieve all that you currently achieve, while preserving total brand integrity and identity.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Kip »

Some well thought out responses and suggestions have been put forth here. Well done everyone!

I like the idea of setting up an "Outlet" site to separate discontinued and clearance from the main site. This would, I think, be better for the overall image of the brand.

Even doing this would not preclude some sort of rating system, meaning NOS, NN or NNN, or used or whatever, for that "Outlet".

Another option is to refurbish all returns and sell as something called, for example, Certified Pre Owned (CPO), These could also fall into the NN category if the description was changed a bit and sold say for 20- 25% off. Refurbs would not necessarily be perfect watches but made as close as possible to new condition. There may still be deep dings or scratches that may not be practical to remove. If refurbishing was done and the description was altered then another category would not be necessary other than discontinued/clearance or New old stock (NOS).

Other questions then arise...What does CWL think is best for them? We have our thoughts... but ultimately, what would this cost in money and manpower? This question is pertinent regardless of what system CWL decides on.

What is the return regarding long term value and image of the brand? Perhaps this is the most important question of all!

As CWL continues to grow, the question of what to do with promos, returns, exchanges is only going to be more important. Certainly whatever they decide will be what they think is best for the company and where they want to be.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Old Skool »

here's an example of how they do it:

http://www.goldsmithsoutlet.co.uk/produ ... &pid=16967

(btw, that's a great deal for somebody...and 3 of them in stock at the mo :D )
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by androo »

I don't think there is a real need for sub catagories as long as someone does a proper QC when they come back. List them as Nearly New but point out ALL imperfections and alter price accordingly. So a perfect NN would be more than a NN with scratches and dings. Shouldn't be too hard if people note the problems when they send it back

as the above link to goldsmiths.

Could even take a picture of the actual watch
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by TXAG96 »

I've purchased two NN watches...a C8 for me and a C15 for my dad. Someone mentioned the cost of employing a "checker" to examine the watches and provide customers with information about the watch. CW already employes that person...Wera. The C8 (plus a FLE 09) was my first CW purchase, and it took a couple of email exchanges with Wera for me to get comfortable with buying watches I had never seen in person for delivery in Texas. My buying experience was outstanding.

In fact, the C8 had a rattle in the case. I had my watch repairman in Houston check it out. He suspected a screw came loose (no need to analogize to my mental state here). Another email to Wera. A replacement C8 was soon on its way to Texas.

On the C15, I emailed Wera who explained the few swirl marks on it. Candidly, when I received it, it looked perfect. I had no problems with that watch whatsoever.

I guess I have two main points: 1) I've had nothing but success with the NN watches (and the first half of the 60:60 policy) and 2) if the average buyer is anything like me, CW is already burning manhours (or is it "peoplehours") answering questions on the condition of specific NN items. A grading system may help, but specific descriptions and/or pictures are what I want to see before placing an order.
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Re: CWL watch categories

Post by Lavaine »

Great discussion. I might as well add my 2 cents.
I think the idea of an outlet site is a good one. People who are new to the brand will go to the main site and not be distracted by (or disappointed by) 'outlet' watches. Those who are 'in the know' and looking for a bargain will follow links to the outlet site, clearly distinguished from the main site.
I do think that there is a difference between NN (free of any sign of wear, or still wrapped), and Gently Used (swirls, small scratches on caseback or case, signs of wear on strap). I don't think there is a place on any CW website for heavily worn straps (marks from being adjusted / buckled are fine, schmutz on the inside is not!), or for damaged crystals. Sapphire is tough as nails. Any damage to the crystal indicates to me that the watch has not been 'gently used', but rather been abused, or heavily used as a beater.
Descriptions are key for 'Gently Used' watches. pictures less important, as small flaws often don't photograph well. Using my C3SKS as an example, a description along these lines would have been helpful:

"This is an old stock C3, with a 'Swiss Mov't' dial. This watch shows signs of gentle wear, with a small scratch and small imperfections on the 9 o'clock side of the case, not visible when being worn, and scratches on the caseback. The bracelet has small swirls, and appears to have never been adjusted. The crystal and bezel appear flawless."

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