CW Preview: The Twelve

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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

missF wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:03 pm
Ash_Ketchum_007 wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:30 am But it seems that criticism isn't allowed and the gatekeeping is just too strong.
Well I disagree with this - you’ve just made a long a considered post about homages in general and CW in particular with a viewpoint that’s wide ranging across the industry along with pages of other posts - some on the same topics and some about a watch that hasn’t even been released yet. :D
There’s nobody gatekeeping here and plenty of criticism. Other Brands are equally discussed. And usually in a good open - minded way. It’s a forum of watchies- not a fan club.

Anyway - welcome! I enjoyed reading your first (?) post. Hope you’ll be around for more :D
Thank you!

My comment was based on what I saw on this post and and the criticisms seem to be met with claims of hate and snobbery.

I'll add a few more points to my above comment.

I forgot to mention the Zenith Defy. The first iteration without the 12 sided bezel wasn't really criticised for being an Homage. The bracelet was different and the indices were different. However, the current 12 sided version has been heavily criticised for being a homage. Even the side profile of the case is very similar. There are people who like the Defy. Is it wrong? No. People just feel that Zenith can do better. The Chronomaster original is loved by everyone but the Chronomaster sport with the Daytona bezel is criticised for copying Rolex. They didn't get a free pass because of the name on the dial.

The latest Straum wasn't accused of being a Royal Oak homage. It is a brand that is even smaller than CW but no one called it a homage. Look at Atelier Wen. People praised their dial but called out the 1:1 VC 222 bracelet. They could have easily come up with something new but they spoiled it by copying something else. Let's assume a situation where Rolex releases an integrated bracelet watch with 8/12 sided bezel, similar bracelet to AP and mercedes hands. Sure, it'll have a "Rolex twist" to it but will Rolex get away with it? They'll be the butt of all jokes. Now, the same wouldn't be the case if they recreated the oysterquartz. Why? It just looks like an integrated bracelet version of their regular models.

Check out the comment below yours where criticism is being branded as lazy hatred. This is what is weird. CW is a watch brand. It isn't some sort of sports team. I find this weird about watch brand fans in general. What is the point of hating CW? CW doesn't have any sort of history and they aren't big enough to gather hatred. People expressing their desire to see a CW with their own identity aren't expressing hatred. They want that to happen because they like certain aspects of CW. The Bel Canto is the only time where they came close to these "industry busting" claims and people want them to ride the wave and create their own identity. The other models aren't industry busting in any way, shape or form and I find this artificial "Us vs the world" type rebuttals to be cringey when it comes to watch criticism. CW listens to its fans but this sort of defence isn't going to bring about changes. A lot of watch enthusiasts consider CW to be a mainstream brand instead of a "microbrand". CW is no longer competing with the likes of Traska. With this boosted status, people are bound to expect a stronger identity. It makes sense.

The Trident Pro, for example, has its own charm. The bezel doesn't resemble any currently available popular model from any any popular brand. The hands are different and the trident counter weight on the seconds hand is a nice touch. The baton indices is fine here but again, it would be nice if CW completely moved away from this. Just for the sake of variety. The bracelet is the remaining part. A change would make it completely unique. As I said earlier, there are hundreds of ways to create a 3 link bracelet. They could even create a "lightcatcher" bracelet with chamfered outside edges and chamfered wide mid links with a slight reduction in height of each individual link. I'm just blurting out stuff on the spot without even putting thought into it. CW can absolutely create stuff without taking "inspiration". I don't see a lot of homage talk about the Trident Pro's dial or bezel but the Aquitaine received some flak. Why? It's basically Fifty Fathom's bezel, style + Sub indices bracelet, + CW hands. Again, it's fine and there are worse offenders but CW can do better and at the same time, it bloats the catalogue and dilutes CW's "identity". Even Seiko's divers move away from the design of the base Seiko 5 diver as the prices rise up. CW isn't Tissot or Longines. These are mass market brands under one huge corporation and they have retail chains around the world. A huge, identity less catalogue makes sense when it comes to them but it seems a bit counter intuitive to an online only enthusiast brand that is trying to move into Tag, Oris territory.

With respect to the Twelve - I hope the full reveal changes my mind. I wasn't really expecting the birth of the next icon from this but I certainly expected something refreshing but I was slightly disappointed to see certain things. I'm sure that it'll sell like hot cakes. There isn't a lot of options in this range with respect to integrated bracelet watches. The PRX is the obvious starter watch and then you'd zoom your way to the Zenith Defy. ML Aikon is the most popular model in between this and I'm sure that the CW will beat it in price/quality and the ML Aikon is considered to be a homage as well. There are a lot of microbrand options but CW will grab more attention. They'll rake in the moolah for sure but I just wanted to see something a bit different. I basically wanted it to be the Sinn 556 of integrated bracelet watches. We'll see.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

jkbarnes wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:50 pm
Ash_Ketchum_007 wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:30 am …But it seems that criticism isn't allowed and the gatekeeping is just too strong.
What?! This forum is chock full of criticism of CW and their watches. And if the gatekeeping was strong, as you say, I imagine your post would have been deleted.

And for what it’s worth, I find your post to be more trolling than criticizing.
How exactly is it trolling? This is exactly what I meant when talking about gatekeeping. Which part of the comment looks like trolling? Words such as hatred, snobbery and "trolling" seem to be thrown around with zero context and zero counter points. Reading the comment should have shown the level of respect that I have for the Bel Canto.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

richtel wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:52 pm Have we seen you before Ash?
No. This is clearly a new account. I was observing without an account and I made one to post a comment. Someone was talking about how they wanted CW to move away from "inspired" stuff and I immediately saw snobbery being thrown around. I was bored and I felt like I could have a discussion with respect to that, so I created an account and made a comment. Is there anything wrong with this?
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

nbg wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:30 pm @Ash_Ketchum_007
Interesting that you have mentioned Moser and Czapek. The Streamliner and Antarctique are my two favourite watches of the integrated sports watch genre.

That’s favourite as in liking them, not favourites as in owning them! Both are unfortunately beyond my pay grade. :(

However as they become more popular (it wasn’t long ago when decent discounts were readily available for watches from these two brands) I think that the prices, both RRP and preowned, will be pushed even further.

The designer of the Antarctique is clearly a very talented person. It would be great if CW had a similarly talented designer on their books. :)

The bracelet on the Streamliner is apparently very comfortable. In many ways reminiscent of the lobster bracelets from many years ago.

Neil
Sigh. Finally, someone who understood something from what I was trying to say instead of going into defence mode. These are watches. This is a watch brand.

Yeah. The Streamliner is my favourite integrated bracelet watch.

Not a huge fan of the Czapek but I appreciate it for what it is.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by JAFO »

Given that this forum exists as a CW forum, it's no wonder that CW gets a lot of exposure, often favourable, but sometimes less so. I understand that CW value the input from the forum in respect of the brand.

There's also lots of discussion of non CW watches though.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

A message from the Admin Team

We need to clear a few things up here.

Firstly, people are welcome to post on the forum, whether in praise or criticism, provided that they abide by the forum rules, etiquette and guidelines. Link below in case you haven't read them...

https://www.christopherwardforum.com/r ... 26823.html

Secondly, @Ash_Ketchum_007 : post your opinions and thoughts by all means (as long as they respect the rules), but you must be prepared to have them challenged. This is not intolerance or heavy-handed gatekeeping, it’s a discussion forum.

Thirdly, as we have said on numerous occasions before, if any member has a reasonable objection to someone’s posting or doubts about their identity, please notify the Admin Team via PM or make use of the Report Button. It's much the best way.

Please let’s continue this thread in a civilised manner. Thank you.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Ash_Ketchum_007 »

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:26 pm A message from the Admin Team

We need to clear a few things up here.

Firstly, people are welcome to post on the forum, whether in praise or criticism, provided that they abide by the forum rules, etiquette and guidelines. Link below in case you haven't read them...

https://www.christopherwardforum.com/r ... 26823.html

Secondly, @Ash_Ketchum_007 : post your opinions and thoughts by all means (as long as they respect the rules), but you must be prepared to have them challenged. This is not intolerance or heavy-handed gatekeeping, it’s a discussion forum.

Thirdly, as we have said on numerous occasions before, if any member has a reasonable objection to someone’s posting or doubts about their identity, please notify the Admin Team via PM or make use of the Report Button. It's much the best way.

Please let’s continue this thread in a civilised manner. Thank you.
Oh, I have no problem with counter points. However, the only counters that I've seen have been remarks about snobbery, hatred, laziness and trolling with zero counter arguments that actually stay within the topic. Doesn't really sound like a "discussion" forum when any criticism is met with throwaway statements.

And do I require some sort of post/comment history before stating my views? Is this the forum's version of purchase history requirements because there seem to be users having issues with it too. All that talk about "snobbery" and then we have this.

This is a watch brand and this is a forum about watches. At the end of the day it's just jewellery/wrist art. I liked certain things that I saw from CW even before the Bel Canto and after the Bel Canto, I wanted them to step up their game and ride the wave of attention that the Bel Canto gave them. I see no "trolling" in the comments that I made. The comments that I received (barring 1) and the comments that were thrown at others who had issues with CW's design doesn't really seem to adhere to the "discussion" aspect of this discussion forum. I actually spent time to type these long opinions and the rebuttals haven't exactly been "challenging" in a way that encourages a "discussion". I can't be bothered to get worked up over watches, so I'll stop my criticism. Would have continued if it was any other hobby but this is a waste of time because of the type of replies, so I'll log off and avoid this forum. It ain't a big deal.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by golfjunky »

Noush wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:05 pm

I'm glad they "took their time". I think recent releases have shown they are comfortable enough in their own skin now that they can do this well.
When I think of my own Sealander GMT, which CW concedes is inspired by the Explorer II, they moved the game on and gave us a piece which to my eyes is actually preferable, aesthetically at least. Others may and do think differently.

Please tell me you mean CW moving their own game on and not CW making a better explorer copy than the original Rolex explorer.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Noush »

golfjunky wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:07 pm

Please tell me you mean CW moving their own game on and not CW making a better explorer copy than the original Rolex explorer.
Well, yeah. 'Inspired by' in CW's own words, but it's absolutely its own thing now. I think CW is capable of its designs standing on their own. They don't need 'referencing'. CWs look like CWs.

To take my point a little further: when I first saw the Sealander GMT I saw a CW. It wasn't until I read the article in Loupe that the reference to Exp II by CW themselves really impressed itself. I mean, a brushed steel 24 hour bezel has been done and done for decades. Pop of colour on the 4th hand? That's a typical CW thing. Orange? Good idea, "best not do that then"....
From earlier, what's new? A shaped bezel with screws on it wasn't exactly new in 1972. Louis Cartier did it in 1904. Gerald Genta didn't invent the octagon. I remain unconvinced that a Nautilus has a porthole, but's a different discussion :)

Plenty of speculation on the Twelve by those who haven't seen it. Let's see it then eh? I fully expect something terrific.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Superthrust »

Anyone know the chances of another sneak peak of some sort before the 27th?

Perhaps we should play a guessing game to liven the mood for those that havent seen the preview?

I'll start;

I guess it'll have a textured dial of tiny twinflags logos!
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Noush »

Superthrust wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:35 pm
I guess it'll have a textured dial of tiny twinflags logos!
That might be fun!
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Mypocketlint »

The latest IG tease seems to reveal a black dial and short index at 6 or 12 o’clock. I think the hex screws are actually on the caseback rather than the bezel
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by jkbarnes »

Was it mentioned in the preview, and if so can it be discussed here, if the new line is called “The Twelve,” or is that a phrase for the marketing campaign for it?
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by jkbarnes »

Noush wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:27 pm To take my point a little further: when I first saw the Sealander GMT I saw a CW. It wasn't until I read the article in Loupe that the reference to Exp II by CW themselves really impressed itself. I mean, a brushed steel 24 hour bezel has been done and done for decades. Pop of colour on the 4th hand? That's a typical CW thing. Orange? Good idea, "best not do that then"....
I never understood the comparison between the Sealander GMT and the Exp II. I never looked at the Sealander and thought Explorer. Just like you, I simply thought CW.

It was with the Aquitaine and Dune lines where I saw obvious references to other watch designs.
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Re: CW Preview: The Twelve

Post by Yoobaldy »

Amusing that we get riled up over this small hobby we are all passionate about. Homage or not, for better or worse, options and choices give variety... And variety as they say is the spice of life.

Back to the topic, Check out that bracelet!
I hope the finish in the pic will indeed "catch light" in real life.

285336F6-789E-4251-B6CF-6DEB08237194.jpeg
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