COSC

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
igsy
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Re: COSC

Post by igsy »

Watching wrote:You can always have a watch regulated by a decent watch maker, whether or not it's COSC certified.

Damasko doesn't get its watches COSC certified, for example, but individually regulates each watch.
2 points :- a :- I don't know anybody in my area who would do this.

b :- would this not invalidate any guarantee ?

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Re: COSC

Post by diver69 »

You can always have a watch regulated by a decent watch maker, whether or not it's COSC certified.

Damasko doesn't get its watches COSC certified, for example, but individually regulates each watch.
This is spot on in my experience. I got a CWL (non COSC) regulated at my local AD, havn't worn it in a while but vaguely remember it being within COSC specs when regulated. I seriously doubt this nulls the guarantee?

And yes, some watch manufacturers shun COSC because they feel that COSC specs are "normal" for their watches (when regulated correctly)- IWC for example.
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Re: COSC

Post by Tooks »

A good friend of mine went to the Breitling factory on a tour a few years back, lucky so and so.

Breitling certify all their watches, and have done for a few years.

He told me that the movements are out through certification on their own, ie not in a case, and the ones that make the grade go into a watch and get the engraved rotor etc, and the ones that don't are 'recycled'.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but that kind of process would make sense. No point spending time and money building the watch before you know if the movement is a good one.
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Re: COSC

Post by Kip »

diver69 wrote: I got a CWL (non COSC) regulated at my local AD, havn't worn it in a while but vaguely remember it being within COSC specs when regulated. I seriously doubt this nulls the guarantee?
This really is a topic for another thread, but I do not want to let this slip by.

To be clear...If we go strictly by the book, your warranty is void.

Most any manufacturer will consider the warranty voided if opened by anyone other than themselves or their designated warranty service centers.

Most manufacturers do not cover batteries as part of their warranty, but will not let the battery be changed without voiding the warranty, unless done by them. (CWL is an exception to this, with permission).

Do not confuse Authorized Dealer (seller) with authorized Service Center (repairs) with Manufacturer Authorized Repair center(Warranty repairs).
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Re: COSC

Post by Tooks »

Not sure about the US Kip, but over here in Europe a manufacturer would have a hard time voiding a warranty on the basis that it had been opened and regulated.

By that I mean, if the bezel developed a fault, that would still be covered under the warranty even if the case back had been removed and the movement regulated.

Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable could enlighten us if this isn't the case?

The automotive industry were regularly taken to task over this a few years back.
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Re: COSC

Post by craigski »

Tooks wrote:Not sure about the US Kip, but over here in Europe a manufacturer would have a hard time voiding a warranty on the basis that it had been opened and regulated.

By that I mean, if the bezel developed a fault, that would still be covered under the warranty even if the case back had been removed and the movement regulated.

Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable could enlighten us if this isn't the case?

The automotive industry were regularly taken to task over this a few years back.
CWL take a common sense approach, they say it must have always been serviced by a 'competent watch technican' in their 60/60 terms:

http://www.christopherward.co.uk/repair-60.html
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Re: COSC

Post by Tooks »

Which is actually pretty much what I'd expect...
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Re: COSC

Post by PC-Magician »

Kip wrote:
diver69 wrote: I got a CWL (non COSC) regulated at my local AD, havn't worn it in a while but vaguely remember it being within COSC specs when regulated. I seriously doubt this nulls the guarantee?
This really is a topic for another thread, but I do not want to let this slip by.

To be clear...If we go strictly by the book, your warranty is void.

Most any manufacturer will consider the warranty voided if opened by anyone other than themselves or their designated warranty service centers.

Most manufacturers do not cover batteries as part of their warranty, but will not let the battery be changed without voiding the warranty, unless done by them. (CWL is an exception to this, with permission).

Do not confuse Authorized Dealer (seller) with authorized Service Center (repairs) with Manufacturer Authorized Repair center(Warranty repairs).
But if opened without any damage, how would they know?
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Re: COSC

Post by gatehealing »

downer wrote:
gatehealing wrote: Not sure I understand the point in quartz COSCs though. . . that may be an entirely different debate though!
http://www.christopherwardforum.com/vie ... =1&t=26820
WOW!!! I really enjoyed reading that (esp the article you post inside that thread, Richard)!!! I love the actual science of this stuff. Is there a thread on here that lists technical articles for quartz, mechanical (auto and hand-wound), etc? I'd love to just click through a list of in-depth articles one by one. If it's not there, can we create one? I see the Watch making links, but not a technical-workings of timepieces one (with just articles).

I don't mind searching, and having folks like Kip, Richard, et al referencing articles, but if they're all in one consolidated place, that'd be great (ie is there a way to create a post that just lists all links?)

J
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Re: COSC

Post by Kip »

Tooks wrote:Not sure about the US Kip, but over here in Europe a manufacturer would have a hard time voiding a warranty on the basis that it had been opened and regulated.

By that I mean, if the bezel developed a fault, that would still be covered under the warranty even if the case back had been removed and the movement regulated.

Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable could enlighten us if this isn't the case?

The automotive industry were regularly taken to task over this a few years back.
I can't speak for the UK either, but although some conditions are looked at on an individual basis and condition of watches are evaluated by some, not all, companies, they make it quite clear to the AD's that only the movements are covered under the warranty. This does not include crown, stem or bezels. If the bezel develeloped a fault and the watch showed no signs of abuse, such as being dropped or banged, they would probably cover it as an accomodation. That, or possibly the AD might pick up the cost.

I am the service manager for a major retailer of watches and deal with these companies daily. It is not always fun and the manufacturers lay a lot of expense back on the AD.
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Re: COSC

Post by Tooks »

That's a fair point actually Kip, I perhaps hadn't appreciated how often a retailer might step in and accommodate a repair that the manufacturers wouldn't cover.

I'm sure it must happen over here too.
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Re: COSC

Post by akirk »

In the UK /EU there is legislation placing certain responsibilities on the manufacturer regardless of warranty, there is no way that they could warrant movement alone... We have some very powerful consumer protection in legislation.

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Re: COSC

Post by Kip »

Are you saying whatever warranty I decide to offer as a manufacturer is worthless.?

I start a car company and offer a warranty that says drivetrain 100,000 miles. Engine 50,000 miles and power windows 20,000 miles. The windows quit at 15,000 according to the customer, but they never say anything. The engine blows at 55,000 miles. Am I expected to repair the power windows for free if they are not working and this is the first I have been notified when the car is brought in for repair? Am I also expected to repair the engine for free because the drivetrain is still good? :?

BTW...The CWL movement is 5 years on the movement.
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Re: COSC

Post by vikingdrvr »

I think what is trying to be conveyed (and I may be wrong). You cannot deny a warranty claim just because another qualified watchmaker/mechanic has worked on the watch/car...even in the US! At least that's how it is in the auto industry, and by the previously quoted excerpt from the 60/60 warranty, it sounds to be the same in the watch industry (at least in the UK).
I also agree with you Kip in that the ADs 'eat' a lot of the goodwill repairs that most customers believe is coming from the manufacturer. Happens every day at our dealership.
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Re: COSC

Post by akirk »

Kip wrote:Are you saying whatever warranty I decide to offer as a manufacturer is worthless.?

I start a car company and offer a warranty that says drivetrain 100,000 miles. Engine 50,000 miles and power windows 20,000 miles. The windows quit at 15,000 according to the customer, but they never say anything. The engine blows at 55,000 miles. Am I expected to repair the power windows for free if they are not working and this is the first I have been notified when the car is brought in for repair? Am I also expected to repair the engine for free because the drivetrain is still good? :?

BTW...The CWL movement is 5 years on the movement.
It is not that simple, but possibly yes!
Roughly speaking there is an expectation that items have a certain life, so:
- my fridge had a 2 year warranty
- if it is considered normal for a fridge to last more than two years then the manufacturer still has obligiations beyond that 2 years under the requirment for goods to be 'fit for purpose'
- i recently had the water dispenser replaced free of charge at 3 years old as an £800 fridge can be expected to last more than 2 years... There might be a case to argue that a very cheap fridge would have less expectation of length of life...
- there is for example an expectation in case law that a washing machine or equivalent goods has a life of c. 6 years

However some components might have a lower expectation and some are considered consumable (eg tyres on a car - an issue within a fe miles might be warrantable, but beyond that not)

There is also a requirement to warrant design defects pretty much for life if they affect the purpose for which the item was sold - there is a lot of history of this with cars where there is a common defect the manufacturer may have an obligation to make good years later, and this can be more than just safety recalls... So in your example if the windows not working is simply down to expected life of a component then bad luck... If a design flaw, then as there is an expectation that windows should work on a car they would be covered for life!

Very complicated, but surprisingly complete protection...

Cars are slightly different as there is specific legislation around manufacturers not being allowed to insist that their garages service cars... So my leased Ford Kuga, they initially told me that it had to be serviced at Ford until I reminded them that this is illegal... I am allowed to have it serviced anywhere, or service it myself, as long as I use Ford parts... If I use a non ford part, eg oil filter, then the warranty continues, but will not cover that part or any damage caused by failure of that part - which would be consequential loss to be covered by the third party manufacturer of that filter... So i had it serviced at my local garage at 1/3 of the service costs!

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