I know we all have different interpretations of the word "value" and that watch "designs" can be very subjective but I am once again reminded of what a good value CWL watches are and they look good too.

For most of 2024 I have been in "selling mode" as my collection was getting much too big for me. Recently I have attended several RedBarNYC events, CWL x RedBarNYC in August, WindUp Watch Fair NYC in October, and visited a few ADs and manufacturer Boutiques (Bremont, Tag, Tissot, etc) as I plan for 2025 watch purchases since I sold so many in 2024. What I found left me somewhat speechless but still able to write this long post.

I think my year of only selling watches has made me even more particular about the watches I like and will actually spend money on. I am amazed at what some brands charge these days for a basic watch with on off the shelf movement. I do not want to sound like an advertisement for CWL but I honestly could not say that the Bremont or Tag watches were any better than CWL and the movements they use are the same selitas used by CWL. As for Tudor, maybe they are better but maybe they are not...at least they claim in-house movements for whatever that is worth.

I think brands got drunk on the demand for goods during the pandemic and have not yet come back to reality even though the secondary market has come down considerably. How long before ADs and brand "boutiques" realize they need to start discounting if they want to sell/move stock?

The prices almost made me laugh. When the heck did a basic Tag Heur GMT become $4,200? And where does Bremont get off having the same basic GMT for the same money as a Tag that has more heritage, more locations, and more service options?

$1,380/$1,420 Christopher Ward Trident 300 GMT (selita sw330)

$3,900 Bremont GMT (selita sw330) (new version coming soon according to the boutique manager with simpler case and updated logo which is not as nice but will be priced at $4,200)

$4,200 Tag Heur Aquaracer GMT (selita sw330 - technically modified but still a selita)
$4,650 Tag Heur Autavia GMT (selita sw330 - discontinued but boutique still had one)

$4,225 Tudor Black Bay Pro (GMT)
$4,375 Tudor Black Bay GMT
$4,600 Tudor Black Bay 58 GMT
$4,625 Tudor Pelagos FXD GMT

For me, it is an easy decision to purchase a Tudor over a Tag or Bremont since they are essentially the same price but I struggle to find a reason to purchase a Tudor over a CWL these days because even Tudor keeps increasing their pricing. It is not that I can't afford it, it is that I simply cannot imagine paying $4200 for a modern Tag Heur watch because these were 2nd/3rd tier "mall watches" not that long ago. They are made better today than in the 80s/90s but not that much better. CWL really are great watches for very little money when compared to the competition.

/rant over

You make some truly valid points. Though again value is in the eye of the beholder

When the innards are the same, it comes down to the outside - materials, whether it has COSC/METAS/whatever certification, and very importantly, design and finish.

It's all pretty subjective since we all place different value on different elements/factors in a watch.

Apart from that, we all also have different priorities in life and we spend our money accordingly.

Good points and with CW I often come back to value. From being a CW only owner a few years ago I've been diversifying and have had to adjust the big wide horological world (this forum has been a great intro to many brands). I've owned 24 CW's out of a total of 32 pieces that have cycled in and out of the collection. Currently have ten in a collection of 17 ( - SOTC post probably due soon).

Value, as is oft discussed in this forum, is subjective and for example a recent-ish purchase of a pricey Bremont is in question as while I like the watch I'm left wondering what I could have spent the money on instead. Same issue with a Breitling. But on the other hand I'm happy with my Omegas (hence value, not cost).

Agree that some of the watches in a similar price bracket are not quite there on quality and some more expensive watches can feel over priced and for me, maybe because I grew up on CW, the designs don't always do it either. As such I've often been drawn to CW sized or smaller brands.

With most CW's it was a bit of a tear to sell them because they were good watches and I've not sold one I didn't like - only reason for selling was to keep my collection size manageable. I've also found myself oddly sentimental and hoped they went to a good home!

PGR101 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:29 am Good points and with CW I often come back to value. From being a CW only owner a few years ago I've been diversifying and have had to adjust the big wide horological world (this forum has been a great intro to many brands). I've owned 24 CW's out of a total of 32 pieces that have cycled in and out of the collection. Currently have ten in a collection of 17 ( - SOTC post probably due soon).

Value, as is oft discussed in this forum, is subjective and for example a recent-ish purchase of a pricey Bremont is in question as while I like the watch I'm left wondering what I could have spent the money on instead. Same issue with a Breitling. But on the other hand I'm happy with my Omegas (hence value, not cost).

Agree that some of the watches in a similar price bracket are not quite there on quality and some more expensive watches can feel over priced and for me, maybe because I grew up on CW, the designs don't always do it either. As such I've often been drawn to CW sized or smaller brands.

With most CW's it was a bit of a tear to sell them because they were good watches and I've not sold one I didn't like - only reason for selling was to keep my collection size manageable. I've also found myself oddly sentimental and hoped they went to a good home!

I understand about watch collection size and trying to keep it manageable.

In 1992, I purchased my first watch: Swatch automatic.
In 1994, I purchased my first nice watch: Rolex Explorer II Polar 16570
In 2010, I purchased my second nice watch for a significant birthday: Rolex DateJust steel/gold

In 2016 (until 2023), it all went off the rails when my brother got into modded Seiko watches and microbrands. I followed him down the rabbit hole and purchased more than 30 (Alpina, Aragon, Hamilton, Oris, Seiko, Tissot, microbrands, AliExpress crap, etc.)
In 2018, I finally purchased a Rolex Submariner 116610LN
In 2019, I purchased the newer Rolex Explorer II Polar 216570
In 2023, I purchased the newer Rolex Submariner 126610LN
In 2023, I purchased a Tudor FXD and a Tudor 1926

In 2024, I started selling almost everything including the Rolex watches to get back to a few I will really enjoy and wear.
In 2025, I plan to add a few a really "want" including a CWL.

So, for almost 25 years (1992-2016), I only owned 3 watches. It would be nice to get back to just 3 but I am not sure that would be fun at this point in my life. Again, what I have learned during more than 30 years of "collecting watches" is that everything is subjective but (to me)...

I still think CWL are an amazing value for what you get.


Current SOTC
- Red X is sold
- Most but not everything is shown.
- Updated SOTC coming soon.

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:14 pm

PGR101 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:29 am Good points and with CW I often come back to value. From being a CW only owner a few years ago I've been diversifying and have had to adjust the big wide horological world (this forum has been a great intro to many brands). I've owned 24 CW's out of a total of 32 pieces that have cycled in and out of the collection. Currently have ten in a collection of 17 ( - SOTC post probably due soon).

Value, as is oft discussed in this forum, is subjective and for example a recent-ish purchase of a pricey Bremont is in question as while I like the watch I'm left wondering what I could have spent the money on instead. Same issue with a Breitling. But on the other hand I'm happy with my Omegas (hence value, not cost).

Agree that some of the watches in a similar price bracket are not quite there on quality and some more expensive watches can feel over priced and for me, maybe because I grew up on CW, the designs don't always do it either. As such I've often been drawn to CW sized or smaller brands.

With most CW's it was a bit of a tear to sell them because they were good watches and I've not sold one I didn't like - only reason for selling was to keep my collection size manageable. I've also found myself oddly sentimental and hoped they went to a good home!

In 2016, it all went off the rails when my brother got into modded Seiko watches and microbrands. I followed him down the rabbit hole and purchased more than 30 (Alpina, Aragon, Hamilton, Oris, Seiko, Tissot, microbrands, AliExpress crap, etc.)

Watch collecting is a dangerous past time!

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:03 pm The prices almost made me laugh. When the heck did a basic Tag Heur GMT become $4,200? And where does Bremont get off having the same basic GMT for the same money as a Tag that has more heritage, more locations, and more service options?

$1,380/$1,420 Christopher Ward Trident 300 GMT (selita sw330)

$3,900 Bremont GMT (selita sw330) (new version coming soon according to the boutique manager with simpler case and updated logo which is not as nice but will be priced at $4,200)

$4,200 Tag Heur Aquaracer GMT (selita sw330 - technically modified but still a selita)
$4,650 Tag Heur Autavia GMT (selita sw330 - discontinued but boutique still had one)

$4,225 Tudor Black Bay Pro (GMT)
$4,375 Tudor Black Bay GMT
$4,600 Tudor Black Bay 58 GMT
$4,625 Tudor Pelagos FXD GMT

For me, it is an easy decision to purchase a Tudor over a Tag or Bremont since they are essentially the same price but I struggle to find a reason to purchase a Tudor over a CWL these days because even Tudor keeps increasing their pricing. It is not that I can't afford it, it is that I simply cannot imagine paying $4200 for a modern Tag Heur watch because these were 2nd/3rd tier "mall watches" not that long ago. They are made better today than in the 80s/90s but not that much better. CWL really are great watches for very little money when compared to the competition.

/rant over

To be fair to both Bremont (a brand I'll likely never buy) and Tag (a brand I like very much), I don't think many people pay the retail price. It's not uncommon to pick up either of those new with a healthy 30% discount, more if you buy nearly new.

Agree that CW is a value brand, but one that has been positioning itself steadily North as it competes with more expensive brands.

Some interesting points but its not just simply the movement or even the finish to the case. Over the years I have owned a Kenmer Marine watch, Tourby, Dornbluth all using a Unitas movement but from an off the shelf movement to one with some decoration to one with months of hand polish, modification and rework you just cant compare the three and simply say "A bog standard such and such movement"

The ETA movement in a "cheaper" watch is unlikely to be the same as the one in the "higher end" watch. Often there are customisations made, its been reworked, blued screws etc.....

Tag have moved on a lot more in recent years with in house movements, better finish on their cases etc... Does it justify the price? I suppose thats for the buyer to decide but in saying that, around 4K for a chronograph watch that can probably be purchased at a discount is a lot less than the gouging of some other brands who have jumped their prices to around 7K

I like some of Bremont watches they also have hardened cases in some of their watches have some interesting innovations too, I thought most of their movements are also chronometre grade so its not so simple as just an ETA movement.

I have owned a number of CW watches over the years I would put them around Oris for much of their general stuff some of the more elaborate stuff perhaps Longines and I think their price compares.

Big brands are not the only ones who bumped up the prices in recent years, so called micro brands are just as bad.

For me its just buy what you like and something is only worth what you are willing to pay. If you dont like say Tag or Rolex or CW nothing is going to convince you otherwise and just buying something because its "cheaper" will do nothing more than see it on sales corner in a few months

CBMVic20 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:34 pm
To be fair to both Bremont (a brand I'll likely never buy) and Tag (a brand I like very much), I don't think many people pay the retail price. It's not uncommon to pick up either of those new with a healthy 30% discount, more if you buy nearly new.

Agree that CW is a value brand, but one that has been positioning itself steadily North as it competes with more expensive brands.

I live in Manhattan/NYC and ADs are still sticking to asking full price for watches. I have walked out of several because of this foolishness. The "brand boutiques" might offer an extra strap but they too are sticking to full MSRP.

Often they remark: "if the locals do not want tp pay full price, the tourists will".

robert75 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2024 11:04 pm Some interesting points but its not just simply the movement or even the finish to the case. Over the years I have owned a Kenmer Marine watch, Tourby, Dornbluth all using a Unitas movement but from an off the shelf movement to one with some decoration to one with months of hand polish, modification and rework you just cant compare the three and simply say "A bog standard such and such movement"

The ETA movement in a "cheaper" watch is unlikely to be the same as the one in the "higher end" watch. Often there are customisations made, its been reworked, blued screws etc.....

Tag have moved on a lot more in recent years with in house movements, better finish on their cases etc... Does it justify the price? I suppose thats for the buyer to decide but in saying that, around 4K for a chronograph watch that can probably be purchased at a discount is a lot less than the gouging of some other brands who have jumped their prices to around 7K

I like some of Bremont watches they also have hardened cases in some of their watches have some interesting innovations too, I thought most of their movements are also chronometre grade so its not so simple as just an ETA movement.

I have owned a number of CW watches over the years I would put them around Oris for much of their general stuff some of the more elaborate stuff perhaps Longines and I think their price compares.

Big brands are not the only ones who bumped up the prices in recent years, so called micro brands are just as bad.

For me its just buy what you like and something is only worth what you are willing to pay. If you dont like say Tag or Rolex or CW nothing is going to convince you otherwise and just buying something because its "cheaper" will do nothing more than see it on sales corner in a few months

I understand that it is not always an exact apples to apples comparison but in many cases, it is just that.

Tag and Bremont may use a higher grade Selita movement but that does not account for the exponential increase in manufacturing costs or final MSRP. I know there may be some differences in dial and case finishing but the differences when compared to a CWL do not account for the rest of the difference in price. I also understand that most of the money for the Tag goes into their advertising and sales locations. I do not understand Bremont pricing especially with some of the nonsense they have pulled in the past with their so-called in-house movements.

I own a Laco Cuxhaven with an ETA/Unitas 6498 movement and the current MSRP is $2050 yet one can purchase a Tissot with the same movement for less than $1,000. The Laco has blued screws, better finished movement, blued hands, and a better dial so you are getting something for the higher price but less than 5 years ago that same Laco was $1,000 and the Tissot was $800.

Maybe I am just an old fart who misses the "good old days" when one could walk into an AD and purchase almost any Rolex sports watch except the Daytona for not that much money (relatively speaking). Those were the days, not even that long ago, when people actually needed a watch and often only had one except for the really strange people who collected watches.

Watches are made so much better today but IMHO the prices do not match the value anymore. They truly have become unnecessary luxury goods.

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:39 pm …….. I do not understand Bremont pricing especially with some of the nonsense they have pulled in the past with their so-called in-house movements.

I’m only highlighting a small part of your post but I did want to respond to this specific point.

I’ve made no secret of the fact I like Bremont, I’ve owned 8 and still have 1 in my small collection. I also visited their HQ, the wing, a few years ago to see the manufacturing process in action.

Now referring mainly to Bremont BC (Before Cerrato), all parts for their cases were made in their own facilities in Henley. Before they opened the wing they were still made locally by local engineering firms in the UK. What first attracted me to Bremont was their high quality case design and the fact they were aiming at the time to bring watchmaking to the UK.

The wing is an impressive place and was clearly not cheap to build and equip. The fact Bremont sold their watches at the prices they did and still made a loss tells you that their watches were priced high due to the cost of making them.

Many other watch makers outsource their manufacturing to China for their cases and bracelets which obviously keeps costs and overheads lower.

I fully appreciate you not wanting to spend the price of a Bremont on a Bremont, but there are reasons behind their prices other than it just being what they think they can charge.

iain wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:55 am
I fully appreciate you not wanting to spend the price of a Bremont on a Bremont, but there are reasons behind their prices other than it just being what they think they can charge.

I think with many brands there are reasons for their pricing that may be apparent, or not apparent, to the customer.

I was not specifically targeting Bremont as I mentioned other brands too, but I often will only comment on what I have seen and handled in-person. With that said, a few minutes in a store with a watch does not always fully tell the story. Similarly, I am surprised with YouTubers who can "review" a watch without ever handling it person. I really appreciate the reviewers who spend a few weeks, rather than a few days or hours with a watch, and as a result can give a more fair and balanced review.

At the end of the day, I am only giving one man's opinion.

Some of my opinions are:
- Rolex watches are terrible value for money but still made well. I have owned many during the past 30 years.
- CWL watches are great value for money and are made well (but not as well as Rolex). I have handled many and plan to own one in 2025.

For me, watches fall on a spectrum of objective (fact based) and subjective (emotional based) value.

nycWATCHnerd wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:44 pm For me, watches fall on a spectrum of objective (fact based) and subjective (emotional based) value.

And therein lies the dilema when it comes to buying watches.

I can see the value in my Bremont but I accept others don’t.

I’ve also owned a Rolex and agree it was a very well made watch, but no better than some other watches I’ve owned.

By far my most owned brand is CW, although I’m currently without one in my collection and agree that they are excellent value for money.

I am more happy to spend money on watches where brands have invested in the watch or the manufacturing itself, such as Bremont, as opposed to brands who invest in their image with expensive brand ambassadors.

iain wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:00 pm I am more happy to spend money on watches where brands have invested in the watch or the manufacturing itself, such as Bremont, as opposed to brands who invest in their image with expensive brand ambassadors.

Bremont does just that...
https://us.bremont.com/pages/ambassadors-and-partners

Bremont has a wall in the wing showing all their brand ambassadors and several exhibits around the factory showing the watches that have been used in film and TV.

They also invested in their watchmaking capabilities.

The majority of Bremonts ambassadors are people who are less well known and wear their watches and actually put them through their paces. As opposed to famous people being paid to wear one on the red carpet.

However I do wear watches from brands that take this approach. IWC for example use Lewis Hamilton as an ambassador, but like Bremont they have invested in their watchmaking capabilities as well.

There are some brands who have their cases made in China, assembled in Switzerland using generic movements, then worn on the wrist of some A list star to promote the brand. All this while taking a bask seat with their watchmaking capabilities.