Has CW lost it's way??

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Scrogg »

golfjunky wrote:True. I didn't say it was wrong it's just not for me atm
It's not really for me either; but that could be more to do with a genuine hatred of the CHR.WARD logo, which is why I am happy catching up with the 'classic' range (that more long-standing members were around to enjoy new direct from CW) by buying used original logo watches on here and eBay...

...but that's not what this thread is about.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Crossi »

GreatScott wrote:Ok, I know that title is going to get a lot of flack, but I want to let everyone know I am a huge CW fan. I am having a little trouble here recently due to a number of issues so my main concern n bringing this up is that hopefully CW will see it and make some needed corrections. Yes, this is 100% my opinion, but others certainly have to have thee same concerns.

1) Sale, Sale, Sale, Sale. Every week a new sale. All constant sale's do is cheapen the product an make anyone who paid full price feel like a fool. Let's get back to twice a year small sales. If the product is overpriced then make it cheaper from the get-go.

Is it not true to say that virtually all of their direct competitors are always available at a discount? If I get 15% off a Longines/Hamilton/xyz Brand it feels as though I have just bargained well with the AD not that the manufacturer is discounting. CW can't unload excess stock through a dealer network or the grey market.

2) Something for everyone. Yep, there are waaaaay to many choices. Every color, every type, every tie-in. CW - don't worry about being something for everyone, make a smaller selection with a higher quality. Be the best a few things rather than good a lot. Extra inventory results from failed color schemes or failed designs leading to problem #1.

I'm not sure how significant this is now but as the company has grown, how many people have bought multiple watches of the same design but with different colours - there are people on here with several C60s for example just to get all of the bezel/face combinations. Also, design is a costly business so maximising sales from one design is a smart thing to.

3) Rebranding. Time to get the right answer. 2 logos. Keep the new Christoper Ward for dress watches and add a CW logo = the new swiss heart stuff for tool watches. Rolex has 2, it can work. Also, constant rebranding leads to more sales and back to point #1 above.

I don't have real issue with any of the Logos (I have examples of both of the first 2). I guess it's marketing and I don't get marketers - all of the ones I encounter are about 12 an just want to change things so that they have something to add to their CV (sorry - personal rant alert!)

4) Crappy movements. The SH21 is a masterpiece. Make larger production runs to decrease costs and put them in a greater number of watches. If you keep the same price point increase some of the needed areas of improvement such as the bracelets. Or decrease overall cost to increase value and decrease the need for constant sales. Use ETA/7750 as a back-up but only use top grade and for the love of humanity make them all regulated to 5 positions. Case in point, the problem with the Trident Chronograph is that it used an unregulated 7750. Getting a top grade movement is less than $50 more. No more of this 24 seconds a day stuff, that is a complete failure to your customers. Regulating is cheap. By the way, advertise it, TOP GRADE and REGULATED. This will make happy people.

I don't think that most people see ETA/Selitta as crap movements - wasn't one of the original drivers for CW that they could give a value proposition whilst using the same movements as the 'big boys'? Also, isn't there an appeal to a decent watch that you can get your local guy to service - if you have 4-5 SH21s in your draw, you could have expensive times ahead.

Bottom line, I think CW is trying to be too much to too many people and cheapening the brand. Be the best at a few things (movement, colors and style) and drop the rest. If CW manages to get the best value proposition by using the SH21 in a perfected Trident, etc. then they will have many happy lifelong collectors.
I think that part of the problem for CW that the brand has little 'brand value'. People will buy a Rolex because it's a Rolex - this takes years of brand building. How many people buy a CW because it's a CW. I contend that many buy because it's attractive and appears to be good value and quality for the money - in spite of it being a CW.

I think possibly that at this stage CW maybe would love to sponsor an event or get a cool actor to be seen wearing one in a film but they're kind of trapped by sticking to the original bran proposition.


Sorry I've gone on a bit but just my thoughts - great OP by the way
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Has CW lost it's way??

Post by gaf1958 »

I'll chime in on #4. There seems no doubt that the SH21 is an excellent movement, all reports are that it is superbly accurate and there seem to be very few reports of problems arising with it. It's durability is probably due in no small part to the over-engineered design making it so tough.

Therein lies the rub. The SH21 is no petite thing, it is a large movement in both diameter and thickness. The watches it has been fitted to have all, by necessity, been large watches and the cases have been thicker than the norm. CW have done a great design job with the new C1 case in disguising the height of the case, but it's still there along with the requirement of a minimum case diameter of around the 40mm mark.

That's a limitation going forward.

True, the hand wound SH21 watches have been slimmer, but there is still a need for a smaller, slimmer movement to allow for smaller watches. While 40mm is probably neatly in the middle of my size range, it's not so for others. Making the watches larger to cater for larger wrists is easily done with the SH21, the reverse not so. Making a truly slim watch is not so easy with the SH21 either.

The solution? Not for me to say, but there's clearly still a place for the 2824/SW200 (or even the 2892/SW300 would be nice to see). I guess the ultimate solution would be a new SH movement that is smaller, thinner and hopefully more affordable. Will it happen? Don't know, but it'd be great to see.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by alex-w »

I don't mind sales, it's more honest if they dump the overstock officially than in jomashop or ashfords.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Kip »

GreatScott wrote:Ok, I know that title is going to get a lot of flack, but I want to let everyone know I am a huge CW fan. I am having a little trouble here recently due to a number of issues so my main concern n bringing this up is that hopefully CW will see it and make some needed corrections. Yes, this is 100% my opinion, but others certainly have to have thee same concerns.

1) Sale, Sale, Sale, Sale. Every week a new sale. All constant sale's do is cheapen the product an make anyone who paid full price feel like a fool. Let's get back to twice a year small sales. If the product is overpriced then make it cheaper from the get-go.

2) Something for everyone. Yep, there are waaaaay to many choices. Every color, every type, every tie-in. CW - don't worry about being something for everyone, make a smaller selection with a higher quality. Be the best a few things rather than good a lot. Extra inventory results from failed color schemes or failed designs leading to problem #1.

3) Rebranding. Time to get the right answer. 2 logos. Keep the new Christoper Ward for dress watches and add a CW logo = the new swiss heart stuff for tool watches. Rolex has 2, it can work. Also, constant rebranding leads to more sales and back to point #1 above.

4) Crappy movements. The SH21 is a masterpiece. Make larger production runs to decrease costs and put them in a greater number of watches. If you keep the same price point increase some of the needed areas of improvement such as the bracelets. Or decrease overall cost to increase value and decrease the need for constant sales. Use ETA/7750 as a back-up but only use top grade and for the love of humanity make them all regulated to 5 positions. Case in point, the problem with the Trident Chronograph is that it used an unregulated 7750. Getting a top grade movement is less than $50 more. No more of this 24 seconds a day stuff, that is a complete failure to your customers. Regulating is cheap. By the way, advertise it, TOP GRADE and REGULATED. This will make happy people.

Bottom line, I think CW is trying to be too much to too many people and cheapening the brand. Be the best at a few things (movement, colors and style) and drop the rest. If CW manages to get the best value proposition by using the SH21 in a perfected Trident, etc. then they will have many happy lifelong collectors.
Being a bit familiar with CW over the past few years, allow me to offer some counterpoints. I will start by saying that I may not always agree with what CW does, or how they do it. However, they must be doing something right as, despite the flagging sales of many major brands, CW has continued to grow and be profitable.

1) Sale, Sale, Sale, Sale - CW used to have more defined sales that tended to overload their staff as well as their computer systems. Since they have gone to a Sale section on the website, it has proved far more manageable and with shorter turnaround.

CW has only one store and that is the website. How would you propose that they eliminate returned, discontinued or slow moving items? They could simply dispose of no longer wanted items, but that would costs thousands. That would also have to be added to the cost of goods initially.

Many brands have sales and many major brands do not. This does not prevent other brand AD's from having them. Many brands flog off to the grey market just as many AD's do. Does this cheapen those brands?

2) Something for everyone - Hopefully, but probably not. Not like it used to be, Aside from the C60's of 2015, which peaked at over 200 dial color/strap/size combinations, overall sku's have actually been reduced. The reduction of the C60's, the elimination of the Ladies Collections and the reduction of strap options all point to a reduction overall.

Even with reduced model selection, not every model introduced will be a winner or be around long term. You can keep them in inventory forever trying to sell through or sell at a reduced price to recoup cash to put into more profitable items. If you are selling off then we go back to point 1. How to get rid of them...

A company like CW does not continue to grow by being stagnant. many brands may choose to specialize or run with a very limited selection. None that I can think of have grown continuously or are the size of CW. CW is operating with the vision they have while I presume that many niche, micro brands are operating as they see fit. If they wish to grow, they will be forced to expand their selection as well.

3) Rebranding - I wasn't going to touch this. CW has rebranded twice. Once in 2011 and the most recent being last year (model transition in progress). The company has grown considerably since the 2011 re branding with many more models. Therefore it is taking longer to turnover the stock. Yes I would have tried to do it differently, but I do not run the company. Still I do not consider 2 re brandings to be constant despite the fact that this one has been ongoing for 8 months due to the size of the overall line.

As to 2 logo's..not a choice I would make. Two categories perhaps, such as we are seeing with the development of the Grand Malvern series. Rolex/Tudor or Seiko/Grand Seiko I understand, but 2 logos, I think, would only be confusing. I am unaware that Rolex is using 2 logos, unless you meant the Rolex/Tudor thing.

4) Crappy movements - I agree that the SH21 is a masterpiece. It is limited by its size which also enhances its flexibility.
I do not consider the 7750 a crappy movement. Regardless of the grade, it is a well proven engine for many years now. It is not an El Primero, but neither does it carry the cost.

CW has usually opted to use the middle grade movements aside from COSC models. These have proven more than sufficient to the mass world wide market that CW markets to. I doubt that most of the market cares what movement is in a watch, never mind what grade. Why 3 positions instead of 5?....because in all but the more expensive pieces, it doesn't matter to most. Everything has a cost.......everything!! These costs must be translated into retail. Maybe the next grade up is only $50 more, but using the well known 3X margin of CW, this translates to $150 retail. Worth it to you?

I agree we may have different opinions and perceptions, but CW is the most transparent company that I know of and has shown continued growth since inception. We may not always like what or how they do things, but they must be doing something right.

The above is my opinion just as I may like a certain watch that makes you sick.....style is subjective.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Thermexman »

As a newbie to both watch collecting, albeit on a very small scale, and this forum, I have to say that I have particularly enjoyed reading this thread. So thanks to the OP, for throwing these points out there, at the risk of taking flack, as you said and thanks to all those that have added their opinions in such a level headed and "flack" free way! Very interesting points and counter points here.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

gaf1958 wrote: True, the hand wound SH21 watches have been slimmer, but there is still a need for a smaller, slimmer movement to allow for smaller watches. While 40mm is probably neatly in the middle of my size range, it's not so for others. Making the watches larger to cater for larger wrists is easily done with the SH21, the reverse not so. Making a truly slim watch is not so easy with the SH21 either.

The solution? Not for me to say, but there's clearly still a place for the 2824/SW200 (or even the 2892/SW300 would be nice to see). I guess the ultimate solution would be a new SH movement that is smaller, thinner and hopefully more affordable. Will it happen? Don't know, but it'd be great to see.
I am currently wearing an auto with date based on the 2892 ébauche...7.65 mm. 1mm thinner than the hand wound Slimline. It can be done if desired. Perhaps not in 5-day format, but it can be done. If desired.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by asqwerth »

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote:
gaf1958 wrote:... there's clearly still a place for the 2824/SW200 (or even the 2892/SW300 would be nice to see). I guess the ultimate solution would be a new SH movement that is smaller, thinner and hopefully more affordable. Will it happen? Don't know, but it'd be great to see.
I am currently wearing an auto with date based on the 2892 ébauche...7.65 mm. 1mm thinner than the hand wound Slimline. It can be done if desired. Perhaps not in 5-day format, but it can be done. If desired.
It can be done but unfortunately not with the SH21 as gaf1958 mentions, which is why I'm not likely to get one, even if it's shown to be a good movement and the price was attractive.

I used to post more in similar threads in the past, but I think I'll take a break this time round except to say that:

1. CW probably had to make a choice to leave some of its old customer base behind since it has decided to try for a slightly more upmarket image and product. Only time will tell if they are successful.

2. Too many sales? Seems to me to be about the same as before. This issue gets raised every time there is a year-end or seasonal sale period.

3. are the current movements really crappy? :-k Also, see my first paragraph.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by Oseberg »

heated debate !

There is one point which, in my eyes, sends a troubling message to the customers :

Ch Ward builds its reputation on selling premium watches at fair prices (as shown on the website), some buyers may wonder how they can suddently sell the same watches with 30 or 50 % discount if the margin was so slim in the first place.

Ok, limited stocks, happens before change of logo or model specs, ..... but one has not seen Tudor giving 30 % discount on the Black Bay before they moved to in-house movement and updated textline on the dial.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by BerlinCW »

Greetings,

Has CW lost it's way?..................No.

We all follow different companies/brands (large and small) and most will make changes at some stage just as CW have done.

Whether it is rebranding, changing a logo, withdrawing older items or introducing new ones it's all part of
standard business practice. Isn't it?

I follow several brands and make repeated purchases, just as everybody does.

It does not mean I like everything they do or produce.

I always go back because of company core values, good products, competitive prices, quality and because I like
(sorry need!) what I purchase.

We have choices as consumers and thankfully we are all different!

Carry on consuming, CW and others need you.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by fishman »

gaf1958 wrote:I'll chime in on #4. There seems no doubt that the SH21 is an excellent movement, all reports are that it is superbly accurate and there seem to be very few reports of problems arising with it. It's durability is probably due in no small part to the over-engineered design making it so tough.

Therein lies the rub. The SH21 is no petite thing, it is a large movement in both diameter and thickness. The watches it has been fitted to have all, by necessity, been large watches and the cases have been thicker than the norm. CW have done a great design job with the new C1 case in disguising the height of the case, but it's still there along with the requirement of a minimum case diameter of around the 40mm mark.

That's a limitation going forward.

True, the hand wound SH21 watches have been slimmer, but there is still a need for a smaller, slimmer movement to allow for smaller watches. While 40mm is probably neatly in the middle of my size range, it's not so for others. Making the watches larger to cater for larger wrists is easily done with the SH21, the reverse not so. Making a truly slim watch is not so easy with the SH21 either.

The solution? Not for me to say, but there's clearly still a place for the 2824/SW200 (or even the 2892/SW300 would be nice to see). I guess the ultimate solution would be a new SH movement that is smaller, thinner and hopefully more affordable. Will it happen? Don't know, but it'd be great to see.
Agreed that a much thinner watch using the SH21 would be great. The notion that the eta/sellita movements currently being used by CW are somehow substandard is just not true. They work very well, are very durable and I've been very pleased. CW sales don't bother me as this is a normal business practice that isn't harming the brand. In fact, all the reviews that I've read over the last year or so indicates that the quality of the product continues to get better.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by MorrisOx »

Not sure that CW has lost its way, but it still hasn't sorted its brand identity.

There is a hell of a lot going on in CW's range, to the point where it sometimes seems it's trying to be all things to all people. Is it the remarkably good value mechanical watch co, the quality quartz co, the Best of British Heritage Watch Co, the poor man's IWC co, the Blingy Bracelet Wrist co, the Emerging Atelier Watch co, or the blimey-not-another-new-design watch co? It really does need to bring some definition to the brand because there are days when I think it's about distinctive quality, others when it may as well be churning them out like Seiko.

Then there is the logo fiasco, which just hasn't gone away all these months on. Cross of the Helveticas yes, kiddies' printing set typeface no. Sits there like a boil for me.

Strikes me that CW needs to do what VW does with a single line of engines, gearboxes and chassis components: dresses them in different brands. CW feels like its trying to sell everything from Skoda to Audi under the same roof. It can't.

Time to acknowledge reality and split into different brands.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by GreatScott »

So, I would like to address what was going on in my head versus how I wrote it. When I said "crappy movements" I was not meaning that ETA/7750 are "crappy" because I agree that is not the case. What I intended to point out is that there are grades and I believe for the minimal cost increase CW could put in the Top Grade and that would be a very nice thing for customers especially because I have seen several complaints of inaccurate timing. IF CW wants to use lower grades, then I suggest doing some sort of in house regulating to make them fall in line close to COSC specs. An unregulated low grade movement being off by up to 24 seconds a day is shameful, you might as well stick a Miyota movemnet in there at that point.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by gwells »

i don't know if it's fair to say they've "lost" their way. probably more accurate to say their "way" has lost some of us. and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. sometimes companies/brands have to change to grow. i don't like some of the changes (the branding, for instance), but i wouldn't say the company is wrong to make those changes just because i don't like the result. the proof is in the pudding and if they're more successful financially and the ownership is happy with the direction, who are we to say they're doing it wrong? maybe i won't buy another CW, but even if every member of this message board stopped buying CW, it would still be a very small % of their overall sales. i'm sure chris and co are happier when they see members here liking what they're doing, but they're doing it for a much bigger audience/market than us and that audience/market is more important overall.
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Re: Has CW lost it's way??

Post by fishman »

GreatScott wrote:So, I would like to address what was going on in my head versus how I wrote it. When I said "crappy movements" I was not meaning that ETA/7750 are "crappy" because I agree that is not the case. What I intended to point out is that there are grades and I believe for the minimal cost increase CW could put in the Top Grade and that would be a very nice thing for customers especially because I have seen several complaints of inaccurate timing. IF CW wants to use lower grades, then I suggest doing some sort of in house regulating to make them fall in line close to COSC specs. An unregulated low grade movement being off by up to 24 seconds a day is shameful, you might as well stick a Miyota movemnet in there at that point.
What's missing from your analysis is consideration of the number of customers, most of them, who have no complaints about the movement accuracy and are pleased and happy with the product. You're absolutely correct that being off 24 seconds a day is unacceptable, but that is a rare occurrence and can be properly handled by customer service. Today I have on my Slimline that I bought two years ago. The movement is eta and not the top grade of course, but it's been very accurate keeping excellent time. I don't care personally about a CW brand halo like Rolex has for example, but I do care about a brand that builds quality watches at excellent prices. That's what CW does very well and seems to be getting better over time.
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