You snooze, you lose....

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by robert75 »

Thedose wrote:The price increase has pushed me away from CWL and now I will be buying a Hamilton jazzmaster instead.

Shame because I was really in love with the C9 Auto, though, I DO NOT feel it is worth the $540 they are asking. Now knowing about their resale value I won't even think to buy a used one.

Goodbye CWL members it was a pleasure. :wave:

Thats quite sad people feel that way about CW watches. I always thought the C5 represented very good value for money at 265 pounds (Has that also gone up?) I think the divers watches were always a little more expensive than a Steinhart but CW had better customer service (Cant really comment personally as I have never owned a Steinhart and never had any particular major issue with CW)

I do think this is going to make things hard for CW if they are going up to Hamilton watch prices. Hamilton are basically the Swatch company and they would now be competing with the mass produced market while the more "Budget" Brands are able to retain their customers.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by Kip »

I don't know where people are getting the idea that resale values are poor.

While it is true that there are some models and sales/auctions that can be had for bargain prices, there are just as many that go for above average prices. Over the past couple years resale prices for CWL watches have been excellent in general.

I have the numbers from about 600 sales/auctions since 2005 to prove it!
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by ndabunka »

This thread is almost funny. Newbies claiming that they are going to "take their business to Stienhart" and claims of CW thinking it's Hamilton...LOL, jut TOO funny.

1. CW prices are STILL well below Hamilton for similar watches so CW has retained their "sweet spot" in the market.
2. Jumping to a different brand for a minor $30 increase means that those buyers weren't that serious about CW. Rather, they were simply bargain hunters. Good riddance.
3. Everyone on here EXPECTS a pay raise or cost of living increase in their jobs (some day) so why are they SO "up in arms" when the shoe is on the other foot. This just "happens" to be the day in many, many years that CW has imposed a cost of living adjustment.

You don't like it, shop elsewhere. Despite the claims by some on here, CW isn't going to loose much business from this change. Sure, 2 or 3 forum members may buy some cheaper watch (today) but a month down the road when a new model they want comes out, they'll be back. Even if they aren't, a few "cheap" customers isn't going to impact CW one iota
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by Aifo »

Whether CW has now become too expensive for some is a matter of personal circumstances, preference and/or decisions. To most even the Steinhart Ocean 1 is ridiculously expensive because it does exactly what a 20GBP digital watch could do.

Also, if anyone is interested in finding the "cheapest" but good quality watch just pm me and I will give you a list within your provided budget, and am most happy to discuss the pros and cons. However, don't spend time bashing CWL's price hikes, as the increases are perfectly justifiable simply because THEY CAN.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by Peteo »

Aifo wrote: Also, if anyone is interested in finding the "cheapest" but good quality watch just pm me and I will give you a list within your provided budget, and am most happy to discuss the pros and cons. However, don't spend time bashing CWL's price hikes, as the increases are perfectly justifiable simply because THEY CAN.
I think this last point that Aifo makes underscores the underlying theme behind my personal take on the issue. Watches, in this day and age, are almost by definition a luxury item because digital clocks and cheap cell phones perform better as time keeping devices than watches can. As such, debating about which brands offer the best value for the money becomes largely an esoteric exercise because with luxury items, so much of the purchasing decision is driven by "I pay for this because I like it not because I need it."

That's why comparing the Steinhart Ocean 1 to the C60 is a fruitless exercise if you come to the table with the understanding that some people just LIKE one more than the other. As much as certain folks on this forum might want to claim that these watches are largely similar, when push comes to shove, they are different watches, so comparing one against the other falls apart because it's almost impossible to empirically argue against "I just like the CW (or Steinhart) more." What can you say in response to that other than just accepting differences in tastes and moving on?

You can bang your head against the wall trying to drive home the idea that the Steinhart offers an ETA 2824 at 200 pounds less, but when someone comes to terms with the idea that they are willing to pay 200 pounds more for the CW because they just like it more, well, that's sort of the end of the road, isn't it? I wouldn't want the Ocean One because it's too blatantly a Rolex homage for my liking, and maybe I'm willing to pay more to buy a watch that isn't a blatant homage. Am I somehow wrong? This doesn't even take into account the practical realities that the price difference pays for like the longer warranty and the better customer service because with luxury items, these considerations are in the grand scheme of things, marginal.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by Mark70 »

Clearly two schools of thought here. Those wedded to the brand say it does not matter as you would expect but newbies saying they will think again or buy elsewhere.

For me personally I was about to push the button on a diver I was already £100 in excess of my budget but I was prepared to sacrifice elsewhere but now with an extra 10% I am at least have to reconsider. I may still buy CW but it will be delayed and I will have to look at other options

A strong message is being sent from prospective customers I think.

How many of us have had 10% pay rises this year, mine was well below the rate of inflation so everything is being squeezed and " luxury " purchases have to be well considered. If its your passion 10% will not matter but to others!

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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by Aifo »

Mark, I do totally understand your pain and if you weren't interested in the watch in the first place you wouldn't have the angst and frustration. Why don't you share your criteria on a diver (in a new post maybe) that you wish to purchase and I am sure many here can come up with a few constructive ideas for you. Don't forget CWL forum is independent from the brand and none of us was obliged to support the brand either (actually for a brief period during the release of the Steinhart Ocean 2 I dare say this is a Steinhart Ocean 2 forum :)).
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by downer »

It is unfortunate that CW prices have risen, but (generally speaking) they are easily maintaining their differential with most other brands.

The one absolute fallacy in this thread is the assertion that CW residual values are poor. That is absolutely untrue. I have bought and sold 15 CW watches over the past 4 years, and overall, I have not lost any money at all. At the same time, I have bought and sold 3 Steinharts and it has cost me quite a bit.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by robert_ford »

There maybe a lesson here and that us to communicate the reason on the forum as to why the increase is necessary. To the lay man with better exchange rates etc it is difficult to understand why the increas.is so high. CW relies on its existing customers to buy another watch and to recommend them to others. We won't do the latter if we feel niggled.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by scooter »

robert_ford wrote:The ocean one and c60 look nearly the same
Really?

That would be apart from:

The hands, the date position, the date magnifier, the dial markers, the second hand, the shoulder protecting the crown, the bracelet.....

By the way, crap photos I know. I'm aware of my limitations. :wink:

Image

Image

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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by robinbarke »

robert_ford wrote:There maybe a lesson here and that us to communicate the reason on the forum as to why the increase is necessary. To the lay man with better exchange rates etc it is difficult to understand why the increas.is so high. CW relies on its existing customers to buy another watch and to recommend them to others. We won't do the latter if we feel niggled.
I have no inside knowledge but I offer the following as likely reasons for the 10% price rises.

The continuing strength of the Swiss Franc, particularly against the £ and $

Price pressures from ETA and Sellita as demand is now significantly outstripping supply

The escalation of staffing costs at CW associated with expansion and as demand for warranty repairs grows with an
ageing portfoio of watches but still within the 5 year warranty period.

The need to finance the production of an ambitious new model range including the hugely expensive semi in house
movement for the new mono pusher.

To finance a significantly increased advertising budget to ensure that volume sales justify the investment in new
products.

To meet the demand from the equity partners for enhanced returns in line with the risks associated with expansion
and in line with the growth of the business.

To give further scope for price promotions and event sales.

An in house judgement that the product remains good value when viewed against their competitors products
and a timely price rise will not impact significantly upon sales.

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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by ianblyth »

I have been trying to keep out of this :silent: but decided I couldn't.
Thedose wrote:The price increase has pushed me away from CWL and now I will be buying a Hamilton jazzmaster instead.
Shame because I was really in love with the C9 Auto, though, I DO NOT feel it is worth the $540 they are asking. Now knowing about their resale value I won't even think to buy a used one.
Goodbye CWL members it was a pleasure. :wave:
Goodbye Time Traveller. As that is your occupation listed in your profile then you should go back in time and buy watches when they were cheaper. I went through your 21 posts. I don’t think that you will be missed. :wave:
macka splaff wrote:I can't support unrealistic price hikes.
23 posts
Don't. It is your money and you can spend it however you like. Must be a bummer shopping for food with inflation putting up prices all the time.
macka splaff wrote: I fully accept that over the lifespan of a watch it is a miniscule rise but on principle I cannot support the 10% overnight hikes.
Just as well you don’t buy Omega or Rolex then. But you sig says you do have an Omega. :shock: Do you like their oovernight 10% price rises?
And a few CW in the pipeline.....
Scored out in your sig. Really?
robert_ford wrote:Just purchased a new Steinhart Ocean One for £276 with SS bracelet. CW C60 £460
Sorry but the Steinhart is just better value with a ETA 2842-2 movement.
That must make the C5s at £185 exceptional value then if your criteria is finding that movement as cheap as possible. :D Just don't look at Breitlings. Their watches with that movement are all over £2K. Value is more than price. Plus Steinhart is in Euros which have made the price more appeal to the UK Pound.
robert_ford wrote:The ocean one and c60 look nearly the same
I have bought 2 C60s and 2 Ocean Ones. Both Steinharts have been sold but I still have my C60’s. There are similarities (they are both watches for a start :lol: and both divers) but are very different in real life. I have nothing against Steinhart. They make nice watches but the C60 is better for me. And that is the clue. It is a personal thing.

robert_ford wrote:No. Not now that I know of other good watches. I have 5 cw watches , but only found out about the ocean 1 from this forum! If the cw c60 had been around the same price or even a bit More I would have bought it as they offer the 5yr warranty and they are British. I wish cw all the best for the future, but I will now start comparing there products more carefully and not take it for granted that they offer excellent value.
You should always look around and compare. While I like CWL I have many other makes as do most people on this forum. Which is why there is a healthy Other Brands section. They do offer excellent value but they may not fit into your criteria.
robert_ford wrote:CW I feel are at risk of going away from their original philosophy, high quality/ low price. I have written on a few threads about CW and the original reason for starting up. On Ebay now you can get a C5 in gold 2yr old for £105. CW value new £350. When I first bough a C5 it was £195 five years ago. That's 80% in five years. Hugh price increases and very poor resale value. If CW are that good a quality you would expect the resale values to hold.

Shame as I'm not sure what was wrong with the old business model.

Customer service seems also to be getting worse. Just sent my C5 back for a service and Deb quotes 3-4 weeks. Web site says 2 wks. In fact it took CW a week to tell me that so the turn around is actually 4-5 weeks.

What with that and a £2.5K watch coming out I may need to find another watch company as I no longer believe the cost/sale value ratio on the CW web site. :thumbdown: In fact Ebay may become the best way to buy a CW at a reasonable price!


This is the post that annoyed me most.

You have picked one eBay sale and then conjectured that CWLs so not hold their value! :shock: With that grasp of statistics and conjecture I was wondering if you were a politician. As Kip and Downer have said it is not true. With your 17 posts you will not have see the eBay sales in the Sales Corner but I have been tracking CWL eBay sales for a couple of years now. In the early days you could pick up a smallish bargain but in the last year that has gone. That one C5 was an absolute steal and I missed it. It was not gold. it was SS so your price comparisons are all wrong. There have been quite a lot of watches that have sold on eBay for greater than their original price. The forum marmite watch - the C80 Sector - was the first to do so.

As for the £2.5K watch. We said when the Jump Hour came out about who would buy a CWL over £1K. But 200 did. Very fast. There are a lot of watches that I could eye up at £1250 but I would not be comparing like with like. The same with a £2.5K watch. That gets into Omega/Breitling prices BUT their low end simple movement watches. You have to compare like with like.

As for the original philosophy.
CWL - "the cheapest most expensive watches in the world."
http://www.christopherward.co.uk/about_us.html

NOTE – their mission was NOT to create the cheapest watch. If you want a cheap watch go to any local market and pick one up for £5. Or Argos will do a Casio for £9.99 if you want a brand name.
CornishDave wrote:CW have moved away from my budget over the last couple of years so an increase is really irrelevant to me.

Dave has over 1000 posts and has consistently complained about CWL prices. So he can get away with it. :lol:

ndabunka wrote:This thread is almost funny. Newbies claiming that they are going to "take their business to Stienhart" and claims of CW thinking it's Hamilton...LOL, jut TOO funny.

You don't like it, shop elsewhere.
I agree with that.
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by CornishDave »

Thanks for that Ian! :crazy: I think.

I guess I don't really mean to complain, it is just a fact that a lot of CW watches now exceed my £400 limit. Any new watches that fall inside this limit will still be considered. I like the people at CW, and I very much like the way they do business, it's just I cannot afford some of the newer offerings. That I guess is a simple fact and will apply to others as well. Mind you I don't blame CW going a little upmarket, after all it is a commercial concern and if this is where they can make the best profit that is what they should do.

I shall now retire to the curmudgeon's corner where In as an OAP belong! :wave:
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by nelsonjk »

robert_ford wrote:CW I feel are at risk of going away from their original philosophy, high quality/ low price. I have written on a few threads about CW and the original reason for starting up. On Ebay now you can get a C5 in gold 2yr old for £105. CW value new £350. When I first bough a C5 it was £195 five years ago. That's 80% in five years. Hugh price increases and very poor resale value. If CW are that good a quality you would expect the resale values to hold.
I have to agree with ianblyth re: the above. I think I actually came across this auction, and though it didn't say so in the description or title, it was for a C5 quartz. The only place that indicated that was the photo of the watch manual. Really then, it has very little bearing on the whole resale value issue.

I do see how people are frustrated, though, and it's no accident that most of them are "newbs"--I suspect they've been getting into CWL and maybe watches in general relatively recently, and if they're anything like me, justifying spending a lot of cash on a watch can be a delicate process. Having to then face a price increase is painful.

No one can deny there are a lot of changes underway at CWL, though--aside from the price increase, having the c5 (as it is) phased out is a dramatic change. Seeing models you've been lusting after disappear from the website is unsettling, especially if they are the more affordable automatics. Coupled with he JH and the upcoming monopusher you can see where people are getting their impression of CWL moving away from their philosophy.

I think Robin hit the nail on the head. It's very difficult to pursue quality, affordability, and expansion when you're a small company in this industry. Expenses grow just as quickly as your company does, and when one is pursuing quality it's in watchmaking it's difficult to achieve economies of scale. Maybe someone with a better background in business can elucidate, but is there any reason not to think that this is a trend that will continue for CWL?

If their premium offerings continue to do well, I suppose those products would help subsidize narrowing margins on the more inexpensive watches.

EDIT: Fixed quote
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Re: You snooze, you lose....

Post by robert_ford »

robinbarke wrote:
robert_ford wrote:There maybe a lesson here and that us to communicate the reason on the forum as to why the increase is necessary. To the lay man with better exchange rates etc it is difficult to understand why the increas.is so high. CW relies on its existing customers to buy another watch and to recommend them to others. We won't do the latter if we feel niggled.
I have no inside knowledge but I offer the following as likely reasons for the 10% price rises.

The continuing strength of the Swiss Franc, particularly against the £ and $

Price pressures from ETA and Sellita as demand is now significantly outstripping supply

The escalation of staffing costs at CW associated with expansion and as demand for warranty repairs grows with an
ageing portfoio of watches but still within the 5 year warranty period.

The need to finance the production of an ambitious new model range including the hugely expensive semi in house
movement for the new mono pusher.T

To finance a significantly increased advertising budget to ensure that volume sales justify the investment in new
products.

To meet the demand from the equity partners for enhanced returns in line with the risks associated with expansion
and in line with the growth of the business.

To give further scope for price promotions and event sales.

An in house judgement that the product remains good value when viewed against their competitors products
and a timely price rise will not impact significantly upon sales.

Robin

That sounds good, are you a CEO ? In other words a new business model where the cost to value ratio is reduced bringing CW more in line with its competitors.
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